Could you or I have dominated the 1880s?
 

Just for fun and if this takes up valuable front page space with silliness i apoligize in advance.

How many of you see pictures of pitchers from this era and think , i couldve hit .400 off this guy? How good were these players? Could they have beaten todays college teams? I guess no one really knows but would be interested in thoughts. Was there a decade when the switch was flipped and talent exploded or has it just been a gradual growth.

Pictures stolen from Facebook feed today.

I can't speak for baseball but I know in hockey, most/all teams nowadays would simply slaughter any hockey team from 20+ yrs ago imo, let alone a 100.

I can vaguely remember players smoking on the bench and drinking Coca Cola!

The speed, condition of the players, talent is 10 fold nowadays imo, but of course, there were always exceptions.

Wuppin'
 

Based on some of the mechanics of the 19th century players (pitching motion & delivery, batting stance etc.) it doesn't look like the game was very advanced physically. I'd say a good college team would smoke all comers in 1880...

I am not so sure
 

They may look not as strong, but I would wager that these dudes were a lot scrappier and tougher than today's players. The time that they lived in was more rough, in general, and it was the rare exception that a college educated youth would be involved in sports at a professional level. These guys lived fast and strong, an most likely had the IDGAF attitude towards life in general.

I mean a college team of today.

I was thinking along the same lines. You might end up hitting better, but how long would you last doing so if one or more of them decided to take you out.

I doubt any old Joe Schmo from today would dominate if they were transported to the past. I think We see the mustaches and posed images and just assume they were terrible because they look awkward, some people really do have natural god given talent and they did then just like they do now.

Players bridge the gap from the 1880's to the 1900's and those people played alongside players from the 1900's that played alongside players from the 1920's and on and on. I can't ever remember a player saying that the players at the end of their careers were just so much better than when they started so I have a hard time believing that things change as much as we think. I am sure players today are better trained but just assuming everyone in the past would suck compared to today is silly. Some sports today barely resemble the same sport from 100 years ago but baseball is perhaps the one sport that has changed the least amount.

Nobody looking at a picture of Kent Tekulve in the 1970-80's thought he looked like a great athlete but the guy was a decent pitcher! I think we would be surprised at the ability of some of the players of yesteryear if we were to see them play.

-Rhett

I remember hearing recently somewhere that they did some formulas to figure out that Walter Johnson threw 92-93 mph and he was "unhittable" during his time. If the fastest pitcher threw 92 back then wouldn't it be assumed that the average pitcher threw mid 80's or d-3 college?

If you think you could hit a prune shaped black sphere hurled from a spitballer with regular consistency. Yes, you would dominate.

I'd like to think I'd do well, but honestly they likely had elite hand-eye coordination and speed, especially lateral quickness and agility. If not, someone else would have taken their place. These players may not have been big and bulky, but it is the coordination and quickness that distinguished them in their time. I doubt most of us would be able to hang with them unless one of us was at least a college level player. A big college, but not mlb player, would likely hit further and maybe run well, but they might struggle a little on contact and the nuances of small ball. Also, imagine trying to catch after being spoiled with modern gloves. Great thought experiment, nonetheless. What we'd all give for a shot!

Give them gloves, modern equipment and training and one year and the best wouldcompete with today's players.

"you or I"

Based on this meaning a team of vintage baseball card collectors being transported back in time to chellenge a team of 1888, then I would change my answer to "No, they would kick baseball card collectors asses."

Yeah the spit ball was the pitch back then.
Also, remember you'd have to play the field. Pretty much no glove then.
Not as we know it today.

And they would slide with spikes up.
And you could break up a double play with a take out slide at second.
And catchers could get drilled on a play at the plate.
And pitches had to bat too.
And you could fake the pickoff at third, then check first.
And batters didn't have helmets.
And pitchers didn't have helmets in their cap.

Different era = different game.

Dominate? No. But might could play with them.

Olympic records in track and field are easy to compare. Jesse Owens was the fastest man in the world in 1936. His numbers would not win an NCAA title now. But, he would still be very fast. I imagine baseball players are much the same. Not quite as good, but still better than me.

Baseball was dominated by Pete Rose types, in every sense of the word. The picked 9 had to be feisty, as the 10th guy was waiting for any slip-up.

If you had athletic ability AND small-man complex, you might have done well.

I bet you are right. :D

I doubt this was true. Wasn't Bob Feller "unofficially" clocked by scientists and early equipment at 100 mph in his prime? There were players that easily saw both in their prime and some may have faced both. The way it seems almost all early players say Walter Johnson was the fastest and some say best pitcher which makes me think he was a hell of a lot better than D3.

In that same though, I am pretty sure way back it was still natural ability to throw a ball hard as it is today. For the sake of the initial arguement and for those who have never faced a pitcher who throws serious smoke, I highly encourage you to go to your local batting cage and step into the 85 or 90 mph stall and then give your answer afterwards in this thread. Many of the greatest pitchers had the natural ability to throw hard back then and today. They didn't do a bunch of exercises to throw harder, mostly just to loosen up. In fact, they probably went out drinking that night and got up and threw another 9 innings the next day. I think those guys were a lot tougher than you think. Jason

Lots of good points and actually I never really thought about the toughness. Playing with equipment of the day or lack thereof would definitely give the 1880s a home century advantage. I couldn't play without a glove and I would not want to take pitches in the ear with no helmet.

I think MOST of the players of that time . And even going even further in to the 1900s would not be considered for a minor league talent .
I think I would dominate . They way we learned to play growing up , the food we ate , the exercise technics and equipment .

The same for football . Yes I know the ball was different .

I think that becoming a major league player back then would have been an easier road than it is now. As far as being a dominate player I don’t think I would have performed any better against Matty or Walter Johnson than anyone else did. The top athletes back then were still great athletes by today’s standards they were just a lot less of them around for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. The same goes for the NFL a 6’4” 250 lb athletic dude is not considered a big deal nowadays but that was the size of most NFL linemen up until even the 70s it does not mean that person would have dominated Jim Brown though.

I hit 500 off of the pitching machines used at Cubs fantasy camp and have a career 333 average off of the Cubs professional potchers. Have a single off of Lee Smith and one off of Shawn Boskie. Been struck out by Burt Hooton and Fergie Jenkins.

I also picked Lee Smith off of first base when I closed for the campers......of course I walked 3 batters and got shelled by many more. My ERA must be north of 90.00 and I have a blown save and a loss to my stats so pitching probably is not my forte

I think in the later innings of a double header, once the pitch count gets around the 350-375 range, I might be able to foul tip a Tim Keefe pitch.

I believe some of the 19th century pitchers could bring the heat, particularly Amos Rusie, the "the Hoosier Thunderbolt". http://www.thenationalpastimemuseum....cle/amos-rusie

I guess this could be true and I underestimate these guys but it seems to me a decent college player today would smack Tim Keefe around the lot. Especially if they move him back to 60 feet. Again, if the college player goes back to 1880 and Keefe pitches from 45 to 50 feet then big edge Keefe.

I played four years of D3 college ball and two seasons of semi-pro, wood bat league ball. Remember, college players are swinging aluminum and that's another edge the old-timers would have if our modern guys were transported back.

Moving from aluminum to wood IS a challenge. Mainly because the wood bats are less forgiving and it's tougher to get "cheap" hits. I saw balls hit so hard in college off aluminum bats that the infielders wanted no part of it.

The Braves are showing an interest. :D

Love the question. One way to think about it is not to transport us back in time but to bring early players (will skip the 1880s and go with Cobb, Wagner, and Jackie Robinson) into the present.

Could those guys compete in today's bigs? I believe so. Cobb maybe doesn't finish at .367 but still wins batting titles. Wagner does everything but hit for power and is a throwback to a bygone era. Robinson is still an elite athlete.

So if these guys could do it today, guys like us definitely couldn't do it back then.

1880s though? Hmmm. Maybe. Teams would drool for a 6'0" 225 lb lefty like me!

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I always laugh when this question comes up because 99% of people frame it as those players coming to play now and not being able to keep up with the speed.

If you could transport a current player back to that period, I don't think there is a single Major League player today who would last an entire season in the 1880's, let alone be a star. They would probably fear for their lives and not be able to adjust to life without all the amenities. Imagine someone now going to play a summer game in those uniforms under those conditions. They would be waving a white flag by June 1st. But on the opposite end, someone from that era might be overwhelmed by how pampered the players are now.

As far as a team of Net54 All-Stars, I can't imagine we would have a shot in hell against them and you can bet when I say "we" that I'd be playing in that game if it could happen. You have to remember how small the majors were back then and how popular baseball was, so there weren't many bad players in the league like there are now.

Then you look at the disaster some players turned out to be when given a trial. Michael Corcoran is a great example. He was the brother of the team's star pitcher in 1884 for the White Stockings, and he was also a minor league pitcher at the time. He gave up 14 runs to the 28-84 Detroit Wolverines. If a 25-year-old minor leaguer got crushed by the worst MLB team, what chance would the Net54 Keyboard Warriors have.

Wasn't there a Tom Clancy book that had a virtual/simulated games of the All-Time greats and there was like an attack and Ruth or someone got shot? I can't recall too much more, I was in 6th grade when I read it.

Thread kind of reminded me of that a little.


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This would be one of the most fun/terrifying opportunities one could imagine! Real life Field of Dreams! :)

Fun discussion...

While the average person may not be as fast or as strong as the average person today we have to remember that the major leaguers of the 1800s were not average. Everyone grew up playing baseball, every town had a team, and these guys were the best of the best. There are probably very few Net54 members who in their athletic prime were as good at baseball as an 1800 major leaguer.

I vote NO

Now basketball on the other hand. I would have definitely dominated. :D

I could turn any Keefe offering into a frozen rope extending into left center. With the ricochet off the farthest buggy in the outfield I could make it to third, but would probably head for home where I would give Buck a concave chest or at least an undiagnosed high ankle sprain if he tries to protect the plate. :):p:D

To be honest? Yes and no.
 

I have family who played in various levels of baseball around and after the turn of the century, the steel leagues in Pittsburgh, so maybe, yeah. But reality tells me no, as Penicillin saved me as a tot more than once. Ergo, no medicine, no me.

Funny, as I get older I am fine with what I am. And I love baeball cards more than ever.

Just my two cents.

I think the athletes of today aren't as tough as the athletes of yesteryear. Today's athletes pro athletes all have high school diplomas, at least some college if not a degree, and generally get pretty good signing bonuses, so if sports doesn't work out, they have viable fallback options. Back then, high school dropouts were common, the salaries were crap, and it was either succeed in sports or go back to the mill/farm, so the Ellis Kinder's and Dizzy Dean's of the world had no choice but to succeed no matter the circumstances. Even someone as immensely talented as Mickey Mantle didn't have any other options; when he was struggling in the minors and wanted to quit, Mutt Mantle threatened to drag him back to the lead mines for the rest of his life. The players of today aren't coming from that background and don't have that mentality. And that's before you get in to the lack of amenities and poor medical care that they received from team doctors. I can't imagine someone like Bryce Harper or Barry Bonds putting up with flannel uniforms in July or train rides without air conditioning for very long.

Great post. I guess you could say the same for today's players though. What I'm referencing are the kids from the DR, Cuba etc. They have no fall back. It's either make it or go home and work in the fields.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...e_at_hope.html


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At times in the 19th Century you could call your pitch ( high or low) and wait for a good one. Also early on they did "pitch" the ball, like slow pitch soft ball. And now some of these hitters are in the Hall of Fame. It was not until I believe 1884 that the delivery or overhand motion started the fastball era

And the speed pitch was banned in the early days as well.


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I think that the worst MLB player now would be a HOFer at his 2016 position back in the 1880s. Given that the time traveling current player could take his 2016 body, skills and experience with him.

The spitball didn't become common until about 1903-1905 (though Bobby Mathews of the 1880's Athletic Club of Philadelphia may have thrown it), and the scuff ball (or whatever you want to call the nicked up baseball thrown by Russ Ford and Cy Falkenberg) didn't appear in the majors until 1910.

Probably 90% of them would get back in their time machine without playing a game when they find out they don't get a glove or a batting helmet, especially with the pitchers closer

Was thinking of my PC man Jimmy Lavender. He used it alot and stopped Rube's winning streak and threw a no hitter. So, yes. No contradiction here.

Thanks for that info. Good to know when it first appeared.

I agree with this. I think an average major leaguer could be dominant if he had a time machine to go back to that era. The average Net54 member, not so much. Unless there are some current or former players I'm unaware of on this site.

1880's
 

Why don't you guys who get a "kick" out of putting down 19th century ballplayers, pick up a history book and read how people had to live back in the 19th century. I doubt that any of you would last very long in the 1880's, and you certainly couldn't play the brand of baseball played back then. But than again, I'm sure you all could go 10 rounds with John L. Sullivan.

The answer is backwards human time travel is impossible (notes on time).

You seem angry so I have to ask...are you a time traveling 19th century ballplayer? If you are, then can you tell us how you stack up against your modern game competition? Also, how did you get here? You may be able to put this debate to rest. Insert smiley face here...not trying to offend, just keeping it light.

For real?

This is funny!

Here's an excerpt from Tim Keefe's Sabr Bio, take from it what you will. It was a different game in the 1880's , but do you think you could hit keefe at 50ft. away.

Besides pitching at different speeds, Keefe threw with different arm motions, often side-arm and underhand (submarine style, in today’s parlance) even though the overhand delivery had been legalized in 1884. He also made liberal use of the entire pitcher’s box, throwing from different angles (not simply straight on to the batter) and taking multiple steps before releasing the ball, not always pitching from a set position. Keefe was a master of the multistep hop, skip, and jump delivery, which he described in 1888 as combining “plenty of speed and strength and a series of gymnastics to terrify the batter,” in which “the pitcher had the batter completely at his mercy.” As Keefe recalled later in life, “We were pitching from a 50-foot distance then, and honestly, I sometimes used to wonder how they even hit us, with those advantages which we had.

A pitcher's rubber and the balk rule would have doomed Keefe...such a different time.

It seems that many of you guys think these guys were bums. I dought very much if anyone could go back and do better. Look at the equiptment they had. Wood bats with a handle almost as big as the head of the bat. You wouldn't be whipping that bat around like today's. How good do you think you would be in the field with a glove no bigger than your hand to catch with. Some how you guys think you would be great hitter with the mush ball they had. Most major league players would have a hard time adjusting to that, let alone a star softball player. You can never compare different eras. Frank