Do PSA slabs *really* sell for more than SGC?
 

We are constantly told that PSA slabs sell for more than SGC. This is probably the most common argument we hear whenever someone asks if they should get their cards graded by PSA or SGC. And, while it may be true that a randomly chosen card at auction in a PSA 6 ends with a higher hammer price than another copy of the same card in an SGC 6, it certainly doesn't always outsell it. The card inside the holder always matters more.

That said, the current state of grading vintage cards drastically changes the conversation. The more important question now is, "will my raw cards sell for more if I get them slabbed by PSA or by SGC?" This is a much more important question to ask if you're sending cards off for grading.

The reality today is that you have an extremely high likelihood of getting your cards severely under graded if you send them off to PSA, especially for cards sent at the lower service levels (sub ~$500 cards) where they have inexperienced graders evaluating your cards. It's been happening for a few years now, and I kept waiting for them to correct the issue, but it only seems to have gotten worse. The majority of their vintage graders simply don't know what they're doing. At all. It's really unfortunate. There are still a handful of vintage graders there that do give out fair grades, but they are becoming fewer and further between than in years past. And they're mostly just handling the cards that are sent through at the higher service levels. And even then, they're often still overly harsh on grades.

Contrast that with what is happening over at SGC, and it's a vastly different landscape. I've graded thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years and I keep meticulous records. The gap between grades awarded is now generally at least a full grade difference and often reaches 2 full grades or more. And it's not because SGC is grading soft. They're grading accurately and consistently. PSA simply is not.

I could post endless examples that demonstrate this from cards I've graded and regraded with both companies and cards I've crossed over in both directions in recent months and over the past few years. Here are just a few cards from some of my most recent submissions showing the grades they received at PSA and the grades they received at SGC. Again, this is just a snapshot. I could post endless examples just like these.

Also worth noting is that any color differences you see in the images are due to the images being generated by different scanners and/or scanner settings. None of these cards were improved in any way between submissions. They were simply cracked out of the PSA slabs and sent directly to SGC.

To be fair, any random submission can get hammered by any random grader at any company on any given day. Even the same grader can be more lenient on one day than they are on another. Grading is a human process and variance should be expected. I have gotten fair grades at both PSA and SGC. But what I'm reporting on is my zoomed out look at my experiences grading thousands of cards with both companies over the past few years over at least 100 or so different submissions and where the state of grading is currently at today. And in general, these results shown below are now extremely common.

PSA does not outsell SGC today. Not if we're talking about the same card being sent to both companies.

Note - the Lefty Odoul Goudey was previously a PSA 3 that I cracked and sent back to PSA because it was under graded. They then rejected it as "min size" the second time (it is not). Also, none of these cards have any hidden creases or other hidden surface flaws.

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Well said.

I've known this since SGC inception. I was grading with both from the start of both companies.

I've also taken advantage of these misconceptions over the years.

SGC rocks!

:)

I find the differences between PSA and SGC incredible but why do the scans of SGC cards have darker, more natural colors?

He said in his post:

"Also worth noting is that any color differences you see in the images are due to the images being generated by different scanners and/or scanner settings."

Well, it's early in the post process so I guess I'll state what will be repeated. It's the registry slab heads.

We'll keep this to SGC and PSA. I used to think SGC was a bit better at being consistent in the subjectivity side of grading, then after a while it became obvious, they're not very different, especially now.

I wouldn't pay more for a PSA or SGC slabbed card. Don't follow the TPG, follow what your eyes see and repeat that phrase we always hear "buy the card not the holder". If bidders want to let a card go because it's in an SGC holder rather than PSA, then that's fine. The way I see it, if it's being discounted because it's in the SGC holder, then buy the discount and if you really have to have it in a PSA holder, then send it to PSA to get slabbed.

All things being equal I would argue PSA beats SGC. Yes a High end SGC 6 can beat a low end PSA 6, but apples to apples PSA wins.

As I have stated elsewhere, PSA has ridiculously high standards when it comes to (down) grading the M101-2s, aka Sporting News Supplements. But I now have quite a few of them. Why? Few cared about them before PSA started grading them in the jumbo holders just a few short years ago. They looked so bad in the Beckett holders and some were found to be mis-sized. (Yes, some want to keep them raw in any case but I'd guess some also hated the holders.) Once PSA started grading--even harshly--interest and collectors picked up enormously. And buyers/sellers quickly adapted to the harsh grading, pegging the value of low-graded HOFers (usually no better than a PSA 1 or 2 or even Auth) at high level. Just adapting. Not many higher graded, by PSA, will likely come along.

Of course, no SGC grading for these specimens--will be interesting if they start....

OK. But would you pay more for that 63 Mantle as a PSA 2 or SGC 4?

My problem with PSA now is how the standards are moving. If you have a PSA 6 in an old cert, with a 0 or 1 to start, it's probably over-rated and worth less than an SGC 6. But a PSA 6 in a new cert will be undergraded and worth more. You need a conversion chart to figure the value.

For me, right now I am selling PSA and buying raw.

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in your example I'm taking the SGC 4. Low grade vs mid grade should still favor SGC in that case. Couldn't agree more about the current grading situation and think that's a pretty good strategy when you are as knowledgeable as you are and aren't at very much risk of getting taken with an altered card.

I agree with the grading of late, past 3 years on vintage.


PSA in my opinion has two things SGC will never have and that is Pop and Registry to me that means total control of the Value of the Investors Premium Vintage Grail Slabbed Collections already graded thus keeping their value high and pops low.

Great examples! Thanks for sharing.

Pretty crazy how harsh PSA has gotten on vintage.

The one thing I would say is that SGC can sometimes be harsh re: centering.

So if you have a centered vintage card, your best would be to go with SGC.

But if your card is not centered, it is more of a crapshoot between PSA and SGC.

It works both ways. I recently had an entire sub severely undergraded by SGC. I regraded the three cards I cared most about with PSA. +2, +2, and +.5.

It's to artificially drive up the value on higher grades already in population. If they rarely issue high grades, high grade values will naturally rise due to supply relative to population, this has a compounded affect on lower grades as they will become more desirable due to price/supply.

This is also happening on vintage auto grading and has been for a few years. What was once a 10 is now an 8, etc. PSA 9 is about as good as you'll ever get on a grade now.

Mu last submission was similar to this but with smaller bumps. I cracked out 3 freshly graded SGC cards and sent them to PSA. I got a full grade bump on one card and the other 2 went from 6.5s to 7s. It was awesome because it turned 2 of the 3 cards into the highest graded by PSA.

Great examples snowman. Using the same card is WAY more realistic that 2 completely different cards of the same grade.

Yes, this is definitely true. SGC is more strict about centering (as they should be IMO). But they also reward good centering, which PSA does not do. I consistently get half grade bumps, and even sometimes full grade bumps, with SGC for perfectly centered cards. The majority of my collection is centered. I almost never get half grades from PSA. They don't even take it into consideration at all, other than as a mere qualifier for a grade, and even at that they're pretty lenient. The number of OC 10s in PSA slabs is embarrassing.

This is an extremely rare circumstance in my experience. Unless your cards were heavily OC.

They were not, not at all. I guess I got unlucky with the grader. Two grades low, consistently. Worse in some cases.

Outstanding post and pics. Really drives the point home.

I have used SGC exclusively since their days in Parsippany. I have always been satisfied by the grade received and cannot understand why people keep giving their money to PSA, only to be disappointed on some level.

Its a fool's folly to think that two subjective, arbitrary, constantly-evolving grading scales developed by independent, competing companies would line up when grading cards. There should be no expectation that a PSA 6 should line up with an SGC 6, condition wise and/or price wise.

Add to that, the subjectivity of the individual graders and even the non-repeatability of a given grader over time, it's no wonder that the data is all over the place.

It does seem like SGC gives a bit more weight to 'eye appeal' than does PSA, sometimes giving a bump for better centered cards. To me, that is preferable.

Like I said, the grading differences between PSA and SGC are incredible, but you should have also posted pictures of the backs, to support the case.

The backs are all clean. No hidden flaws.

Here are a few more pics of some postwar fronts for you though...

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SGC seems to be more in line with the grading I remember in the 80s .
The Goudeys at the top would’ve been high-grade Goudeys Back then .
No seller Back then would have saddled that second Koufax as very good to excellent

All 3 of those 1960 Topps grades by PSA are absolutely bonkers. Again, no hidden creases at all. Just complete and utter incompetence on PSA's part.

Same with my SGC sub, whether or not an aberration. Even allowing for tough grading I was expecting mostly 7s and 8s, possibly a 9 or two. Nothing higher than a 6, including on some nonsport playing cards that were from a gorgeous essentially pristine deck, and a lot of 4s.

I wonder if you got one of their noobie graders? I think all grading companies have suffered from having to hire new people off the street that know nothing about grading card in order to grade the deluge of ultra-modern shiny stuff that floods their gates. Unfortunately, these guys have no idea what they're doing, and when they get handed vintage cards, their brains just malfunction. PSA has a lot more of these noobie graders than the other TPGs, just by nature of the current submission landscape of the hobby, but you can still run into them at any TPG on any given day if you're unlucky.

Anybody can look at a card and see if it is centered. There is no reason to have centering as a factor in deciding a card's grade. Other than the people who say they only collect cards with no qualifiers, what use is it for a grader to say a card is off-center or extra well-centered. Any straight-on pic can tell you that.

I would rather have a well-centered 6 than a 70/30 7, but if SGC is going to bump a card with 6 corners to a 7 because it is 50/50 centered, then that doesn't help me, it just confuses the grade more. Now I have to decide whether it is a bumped up 6 or a true 7.




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Must be what happened.

It's funny. Pre Forman, SGC barely looked at centering, and people by and large hated them for it.

People like to complain about stuff. And most people don't know what they want, they just want something different.

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The same is true of most flaws though. Anyone can see excess print lines, poor registration, lack of color depth, wax stains, rounded corners, etc. Yet these all come into play in the grading process. I don't see why centering should be any different, especially when it is hands down the number one factor that collectors care most about. It shows you how well the card was printed/cut at the factory.

The whole point of having a ranking system in the grading process is to establish a hierarchy for each card's desirability based on it's appearance. The TPGs have largely failed us in this regard. Especially with respect to the attention paid to corners. As a specific example, the difference in the corner standards between a PSA 6 and a PSA 7 today, with their newly established goalposts, is entirely imaginary. What makes a PSA 6 a better card than a PSA 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the corners whatsoever, yet PSA wants to pretend that it does. Eye-appeal matters to everyone and that should be reflected in a card's grade.

Exactly how to evaluate eye appeal could be debated, but at least SGC makes honest attempts to do this. I probably get more half-grades with my PC cards at SGC than I do full grades because of it. And I almost never get half grades at PSA, and when I do encounter them on the marketplace, they're usually OC cards with horrible eye appeal.

Should SGC give full 1 point grade bumps for cards with 50/50 centering and otherwise perfect eye-appeal for the grade level? I don't know. And I'm not sure they'd agree with my claim that I think they sometimes do, but I'm OK with it. A dead-centered "VG" card with no creases and great color & registration with just some honest corner wear should (and will) absolutely outsell a "VG-EX" card with a crease, 80/20 centering, a print line, and square corners. The grading process should reflect that.

The fact that 3s regularly outsell 4s, and sometimes even 4s outsell 6s in the same auctions side-by-side, should be an embarrassment to the TPGs. But it's probably too late to change things now (though that clearly hasn't stopped them from moving the goalposts multiple times already).

Beckett tried to get away from the overweight given to corners, and for a while it was successful, but it seems to be falling of the TPG cliff.

Cards don't get bonus points for not having wax stains or print lines. The idea is to start at 10 and then subtract for flaws.

I personally don't think the grading process should be an eye appeal measurement, rather it should be a technical review of the card. It definitely should not be an estimate of the market value.

A 50/50 card with good color and clear focus can sell for double the average price for the grade. And that's the way it should be. We don't need SGC bumping up high eye-appeal cards to the next grade to try and estimate their market value. That would be a mess.



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If the same card was graded a 5 by both PSA and SGC, I would bet my life that over 10+ sales the PSA holder would win in average/median/max sales

I don't think anyone is disputing that. But I think this thread is about which TPG you should choose for grading a card. And if you can get a significantly higher grade from an SGC, you are probably better off going that route.

Do PSA slabs *really* sell for more than SGC?
 

The title does not match the arguments being made.

If we are talking about who is more strict on vintage and pre war, it’s likely PSA

If we are talking about who commands the premium for the same card, it’s likely PSA

If we are talking about who grades more consistently, I do not know the answer. I see cards +/- 1 or more grades all the time when people crack and grade the card back and forth

If we are talking about who I would send the majority of my cards to, it’s SGC for a number of reasons (price, look, etc.)

We need to know what we are discussing lol

If you want to know what we are discussing, you may wish to consider reading more than the title.:)

I am an American, I only read headlines!

That said, good discussion. I’ll continue to send cards to SGC like many here

I disagree 110%. A nicely centered card with soft corners is much more appealing that an off-centered card with sharp corners. I think centering is extremely important and I'd venture to say that most would agree.

I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I do like their implemention of half grades though too distinguish strong eye appeal for the grade from average to below average. Basically, they're saying the card is technically a 4, but looks better than most other 4s, so they'll give it a 4.5. I think I'm with you though in that maybe they shouldn't say the card is technically a 4, but the eye appeal is so superior that they'll bump it all the way to a 5 instead of a 4.5 for those super nice 4s.

That said, I should reiterate that I don't know if they are in fact doing this. I just suspect it sometimes.

I may be in the minority, but I prioritize corners over centering. That being the case, it only makes sense that a high grade card would have phenomenal centering. However, it seems to my that centering should be able to be measured objectively, whereas corners and registration cannot be.


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I've heard that too. If a grader really wants to move the card up to the next grade but can't because of a specific defect, he gives it a half-grade bump. Those .5 cards can be very nice.

PSA vs SGC
 

Do you have any examples of the reverse. Where SGC graded a card lower than PSA ?

John P

I have a few ultra modern cards that bumped from an SGC 9 or 9.5 to a PSA 10. And that 1970 Topps Hank Aaron I posted above was originally an SGC 7, which PSA graded as a 5 the first time, then they graded it as an 8 the second time.

Here's how I tend to look at it. A pack fresh card should in theory be a 10 coming out of the pack, 50/50 centering, with razor sharp corners. With modern production techniques, every single new card should in theory be a 10 (from production) unless made a 9 or 8 or ? by improper handling by the customer.

Vintage cards didn't have the same quality control, so you could have a pack fresh, 70/30 card that has razor sharp corners for the next 50 years because it was handled and stored correctly by the buyer. It'll never be a 10 though because it left the factory in less than perfect condition. Proper centering is a product of production. Sharp corners are a product of customer handling and storage. To me, centering is more important with vintage because it wasn't always a guarantee.

I have a T206 Cobb that was purchased in a SGC 1.5, cracked (not by me) and sent to PSA and came back as a 2.5 which for the record I believe is probably accurate. Purchased it here around 3 years ago.

Thomas

I dunno...that stain is pretty significant.

PSA probably sells a little better overall because they have much greater marketing than SGC. Personally, I buy cards and not holders.

The wisdom of our leader.;)