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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>has it ever occurred to anyone that one or more of the Camnitz cards attributed to Howard "Howie" may in fact be Harry who also was on the 1909 Champions Pittsburg team?

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I believe that the Camnitz "Arms Down" is Harry.

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Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p>Steve,<br />Great query. But since Harry only played one game for the Bucs (in 1909), and Howie was a star hurler, it seems likely to me that the three poses are all Howie. Pictures of Harry might convince me otherwise.<br />Scot

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Thanks Scot. I have the pics of both Harry and Howie at the office. I'll bring them home, scan them and post tomorrow night. Be on the lookout.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>If I remember correctly someone came on the board a couple of years a go claiming he had evidence that the hands down was Harry, it was suppose to be part of the contract Howie signed. the hands down and the other 2 Camnitz do not look like the same person.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Harry:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1163541676.JPG"> <br /><br />Howie:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1163541727.JPG"> <br /><br />Unfortunately I do not have all three of the Camnitz cards to compare to. Trust that Scot does <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>interesting...i just quickly looked at images of all 3 camnitz cards...here are my findings:<br /><br />arms folded: Harry<br /><br />arm @ side: Howie<br /><br />arms above head: ? doesn't look like either player...<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.vintagecardtraders.com/virtual/t206/t206.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.vintagecardtraders.com/virtual/t206/t206.html</a><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Steve,<br /><br />Great photos. I agree with the previous poster about who the subjects on the three cards LOOK like, but I am having trouble buying into the idea that any of the three cards really depict Harry.<br /><br />Camnitz only has one card in the 150/350 series, which is Arms Folded. The artwork for this series was drawn sometime between February 1909 and May 1909 as established by teams with which various 150/350 subjects appear. Harry only appeared in one game for the Bucs, which was played April 14, 1909. On the other hand, Howie emerged as a star for the team in 1908 having won 16 games that season. Based on this timeline, it seems much more likely that Camnitz's sole 150/350 series card would show Howie, not Harry.<br /><br />Camnitz's other two cards, Arms Above and Arms at Side, are from the 460-only series. This artwork was drawn in the Spring and Summer of 1910. By this time, more than a year had passed since Harry's big league "cup of coffee", while Howie was coming off a 25-win season for the reigning World Champs. Again, tough for me to see how either of these 460-only cards would show Harry, based on the timeline.<br /><br />Scot

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Scot, I like your analysis...but why does Harry appear in the Sporting News Supplement dated November 11, 1909 honoring the 1909 Champion Pittsburg team? I guess it is possible that the panorama photo was taken at the beginning of the season. Maybe some M101-2 collectors can wade in on that one.