Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeboo
Bob, I understand what you're saying and in a way agree, but companies like SGC and PSA have terms and conditions that outline what they offer. They both have your example of grading standards today versus 10-20 years ago covered. Below are two quotes taken from their websites:
SGC
"Customer acknowledges and agrees the grading and/or authentication of items requires the exercise of individual judgment and professional opinion, which is subjective in nature, and can change from time to time. Therefore, SGC makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to Customer for the grade or determination of authenticity assigned by SGC to any item."
PSA
"Customer acknowledges that such grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinions, which can change from time to time. Therefore, except as provided below, Customer agrees that PSA shall have no liability to Customer or any other third party for the grade assigned by PSA to any card."
Some common terms:
Customer acknowledges
Individual judgment
Professional opinion
Subjective
Can change from time to time
No liability
That is grading in a nutshell. Each company gives you two sentences that include the same ideas from the list above. Professional opinions might be partially formed by existing grading standards. However, an opinion, by definition, is "not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." There might be a loose set of grading guidelines, but there is no checklist or proof required. Nowhere in the terms and conditions does it say that a card with a 1/2" crease can't grade higher than a certain grade, while a card with a 1" crease must be graded lower.
Someone that sends in cards for grading is asking for subjective individual judgments and professional opinions that can change from time to time. That is what they get.
Whether grading companies should offer more quantifiable data can be debated, but people don't even seem all that interested in simple sub-grades, let alone a list of data that can be derived from artificial intelligence. For an extra 50 bucks a card, would most people want a 20 point artificial intelligence inspection report that is available online that helps to justify the overall grade? I doubt it.
How many people complain about owning overgraded cards? For many sellers, the large majority of their graded cards are undergraded and none are overgraded. The cards that had to be graded four times are the only accurately graded ones. Only auction houses have overgraded cards. (some degree of sarcasm in the last few sentences)
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Trey,
You are absolutely right, but then to my knowledge, no one has really taken on a TPG in court over their terms and conditions, have they? Ask the attorneys on here if terms and conditions on many different types of agreements and contracts always prevail when finally challenged in court.
Both statements you quoted are typical CYA commentary to dissuade anyone from even thinking of ever coming after them for a bad job. But in both of those they refer to the "individual" grader whose opinion is the one that is subjective and can change over time? It almost sounds as if the TPG companies are coming out and saying they only hire these individual experts and that it is these so-called grading experts who make the decisions and not them, so therefore they, the TPGs, have no liability for what these graders do because everything is just these graders' opinions.
First off, if that is true, the TPGs are literally saying they don't really have to stand behind anything they grade because it is all just an opinion. So, if that is the case, why do some TPGs have clauses and conditions where they claim they'll end up buying a card back or pay someone the difference in perceived value because of a supposed error or whatever? Based on what you posted, they shouldn't have to make up or agree to pay for anything, it is all just based on opinions for which they have no liability, right? And yet they do.
But then, who is it that actually trains these expert graders? I'm not aware of any college or vocational institution that provides courses, training, certifications, and so on to create them, are you? Could it possibly be the TPGs who find, hire, and train these grading experts then, and if so, how do they train them on what they're supposed to do to come up with their grades for cards? Could it be that a TPG has a set of fixed, documented standards they use to train their so-called grading experts? But wait a second, I thought these grading experts were just giving THEIR opinions on card grades, not what they're maybe being taught by the TPGs they work for. So, are those grades based on opinions or set standards after all?
And those statements you posted said the individual graders' opinions can change over time, but they said nothing about any standards the TPGs may be using to train them with possibly being changed over time. And opinions and documented standards are two very decidedly different things.
If these TPGs are in fact training these graders, I'm not so sure they can just set the grading standards and then absolve themselves of any and all liability by blindly claiming it is all just an individual grader's opinion. Attorneys can, and do, use very specific words and language to supposedly get across a precise meaning and intent in contracts and agreements, yet we have lawsuits about such things all the time.
I always look back at Clinton's testimony saying, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" as the epitome of lawyer-speak and logic. Now go back and re-read those TPG statements you quoted, and really think about exactly what they are actually saying. But in the end, you are correct in that it seems most all the people in our hobby only care about a card's grade, and otherwise just let the TPGs get away with doing what they want. But just because it isn't likely to be changing anytime soon, it doesn't mean it wouldn't possibly be better for the hobby if it did change.