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runscottbut even listening to tapes doesn't help - the tapes from "The Glory of Their Times" have names of the old-timers pronounced by their peers/team-mates, and I've been told that even THEY pronounce the names wrong. Weird, but true. "Cicotte" was an example - Julie assured me that the guys in the tape were pronouncing their buddy's last name incorrectly, and her argument made sense.