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Old 09-04-2014, 08:24 AM
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bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
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The problem with only using dWAR and defensive merit is that you are leaving out JAWS, WAR, and even WAR7

If a team can find a player with slightly better batting even if it does make the position slightly weaker you can still have a better chance to win games.

You compared O.Smith to Bellanger because O.Smith was a great deffensive player but his overall contribution to the team was vastly different when you compare the full picture of JAWS WAR WAR7 and even oWAR.

Belanger oWAR = 14.6 over 18 seasons (avg 0.81/season)
O. Smith oWar = 47.8 over 19 seasons (avg 2.52/season)

Belanger RBAT (runs produced from batting) -219
O.Smith RBAT (runs produced from batting) -117

Belanger Rfield (runs from fielding) 241
O.Smith Rfield (runs from fielding) 239

Belanger RAA (runs above average) 160
O.Smith RAA (runs above average) 379

So even though O.Smith may be a slightly worse fielder, his batting was enough to make him a far more useful part of a winning team.

You state the amount of games Belanger played as a reason to average out his dWAR higher. Even in 162 game average Belanger only had 530 PA leading to only 465 AB, whereas O.Smith had a 162 average of 679 PA leading to 592 AB. Ozzie Smith was better known for his fielding and his Batting did lack, but not enough to make him ineffective so they had to hide him in the lineup.

Belanger's effectiveness was diminished by his inability to bat thus leading to him being hidden in the lineup and being removed from games early.

Belanger's
JAWS: 36.5 (39th)
WAR: 41 (38th)
WAR7: 32 (40th)

There is a HOFer that I feel Belanger does equate to and that is Rabbit Maranville. It is a hard argument for Maranville to be in without including Belanger.

Edited to add:

The number of PA that Belanger faced compared to O.Smith is a lot lower as well

Belanger faced 63131 PA, with only 7107 balls fielded. Compare this to O.Smith facing 91803 PA with 10581 balls fielded

Also to show how Belanger's batting did affect the amount of playing time:
He played in 1942 games, out of that he started 1687 (86.87%) he only played 1465 complete games (86.84% of games started were finished), that is only 75.44% of games he did a complete game.
O.Smiths numbers:
2511 Games, out of that he started 2477 (98.65%), he played 2265 complete games (91.44% of games started were finished), this means of the games he played 90.2% were complete games.

Belanger's batting affected the amount of playing time he got. Even in these stats Maranville out does Belanger. When a player can't be counted on to complete more than 3 out of 4 of the games he plays I have a hard time considering him a HOFer.

A HOFer is expected to play at least 10 seasons, Yet Belanger only played over 1000 innings in 9 years of play (for comparison O.Smith had 14 seasons of 1000+ innings seasons (his lowest between 79 and 93 was 81 with 986.1. ). Just because he was in MLB for over 10 seasons it is hard to consider him a HOFer if he didn't even have the innings played in the field for over 10 seasons especially if that is the part of his playing you want to put him in for. Frank Thomas doesn't have the fielding innings played, but the AL does have the DH he did his job and he did it well.

Last edited by bn2cardz; 09-04-2014 at 02:29 PM.
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