Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth
I'll take the numbers over two anecdotes. And they aren't even close, if you look at for example Baseball Reference.
Here is Roberto.
Black Ink
Batting - 23 (90), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 154 (82), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 231 (32), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 51 (83), Average HOFer ≈ 50
And here is Hank.
Black Ink
Batting - 76 (8), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 408 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 421 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 75 (9), Average HOFer ≈ 50
There's a great deal of, what's the word, romance around Clemente, perhaps because of his flair and charisma, perhaps because of his early death. But the numbers just aren't there. In 2003 Bill James ranked him something like 70th on his all time list. I would put him a lot higher than that, but he isn't anywhere close to Aaron IMO.
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I could list several more Hofers like Sparky Anderson and Lou Brock. If you don't care about defense, you can argue Aaron was a better hitter, though his numbers are inflated by playing in easy hitters parks. I value great defensive players and players that gave 100% all the time. I will take Clemente and Mays over any other players that I have seen play.
There is no romance around Clemente. He was regarded as the best player in baseball in the late 60s/early 70s after Mays and Mantle were in decline. There are plenty of quotes from that era including a 1968 article in Sport where he was chosen the best player in baseball by MLB GMs. There are even a quotes from Aaron (who was upset that others thought Clemente was better) such as "When you're second best, you try harder." from a 1967 article. If anything, Clemente doesn't get the respect that he deserves from modern analysts who never saw him play.