Quote:
Originally Posted by AGuinness
Those Mantle seasons are truly epic, and it's amazing to think that despite the heights Trout has achieved, Mantle owns a few seasons that are arguably quite a bit better. And yet, even with that, I believe Trout now owns the most WAR for a player through his age-26 season. Regardless of the side of the Trout/Mantle argument one falls, we are talking about the absolute best of the best in the history of the game.
As for the 2011 Topps Update Trout, there is certainly downside to investing in one, but I think the real danger would be in the lack of upside. Obviously, it will retain SOME value regardless of what Trout does from this point on (Trout is already a first-ballot HOFer), but how much higher could it realistically go? For the near- and medium-term, I would hazard that it must be near it's peak.
When it comes to the correction on the newer card market, the $99k on the 1993 Jeter SP is an interesting one, and another example sold for $76k since then. When the first auction happened, I theorized that the PSA 10 population was likely to increase substantially from the 22 at the time thanks to reviews, crossovers and new submissions - but here we are six months later and there are still just the 22 PSA 10 examples. I wouldn't invest in one of those Jeter PSA 10s, but I was definitely wrong about their numbers increasing. And for what it's worth, I noted at the time that there were 567 examples of the Jeter in PSA 9, now there are 582.
Final thought and back to the 2011 Topps Update Trout - it does seem a little sad to me that the raw examples even sell at a few hundred dollars, as I'm sure there must be some younger collectors who have only recently gotten into the hobby and have Trout as their favorite player, but can't afford to get one of these cards. Even for a card that was mass produced and sold it packs, they might be priced out for some kids. Maybe a correction will help them!
Oops, one more note: just looked on eBay and there are REPRINTS of the 2011 Topps Update Trout selling for $5 or even more. That's crazy - and where are these reprints coming from (the ones I saw have a 2011 copyright date)? Topps can't be churning these out, right?
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Hi, Garth. I agree with most of your points, although I don't put much stock in WAR. MLB Now had the person in charge of calculating defensive runs saved on the show, and when questioned by Ken Rosenthal, he freely admitted that a defensive run saved is not actually a defensive run saved, because the context in which the exceptional defensive play was made is ignored. One full defensive run saved is credited, for example, when a spectacular diving grab of a ball about to go through the hole between short and third is made with two outs and a runner at third, with a successful putout at first, as it should be, but a full defensive run save is also credited when the same play is made with a runner on first and nobody out. Obviously, the defensive component of WAR is thereby over-weighted. A comparison of defensive runs saved is valid between players of the same position in isolation who have played a similar number of innings at that position, because it reflects the greater and lesser number of great plays made by each.
Plus, WAR, as it is computed, over-weights baserunning. Bill James introduced an equation to accurately compute the number of runs a team would score from the various possible isolated events, which was consistently quite accurate within 2-3% (thus giving it a far better correlation to actual runs scored than batting average, OBP and even OBPS), and the only baserunning component it took under consideration was stolen bases versus number of times caught stealing.
Brian Kenny, who is the regular host of MLB now, has been told by expert guest after guest that WAR is just one thing to look at, and not the be-all and end-all of player evaluation, but he refuses to get it because he's tied his ego to it, even writing a book that is based almost entirely upon it.
There are also some very significant difficulties in computing defensive ratings for players of the past, as some of the total zone ratings come up with truly absurd results. I personally don't believe you can place a single number on a player to accurately evaluate his total worth, but to each his own. My problem is that WAR too often leads to obviously absurd results. Two years ago in June, Andrelton Simmons, was, by WAR, the best player in the American League. I doubt you could get even a single team GM to buy into that! As another example, Trout, before he was injured this past season, was supposedly on pace to establish the best season of all time, based on WAR. In fact, given the fact that Mantle was easily his equal as a defensive centerfielder and on the bases, he was on pace to essentially match Mantle's third best season, 1961, as their OPS+ numbers were at that point essentially identical (Trout subsequently dipped 7 points below Mantle by the end of his season). And I could easily name a half-dozen or more seasons that were clearly better off the top of my head: Ruth's 1921 and 1923 seasons; Williams' 1941 year (and probably several other of Ted's seasons as well, as he had a number of them where he created more than 300% of the league average runs created); Hornsby's triple crown years; Musial's 1948 season, etc., etc.
When your methodology yields questionable and even absurd results, the intelligent, objective person questions his methodology.
Just my opinion, but I think that the majority of fans are not buying into WAR as the ultimate total rating of a player. That being said, I do agree that Trout is getting very, very close to being voted into the HOF based on his existing achievements. Whether he is a first ballot guy or not will depend on the rest of his career--He could still be like Kiner, who is the only player to have led his league in HR's for 7 consecutive seasons (and the major leagues for six), together with 6 seasons of 100+ runs scored, plus a .398 career OBP, an incredible figure considering his lifetime .279 batting average), whose lifetime totals were curtailed by significant back problems. Kiner had the second best HR frequency to the Babe before the steroid era, and was often named as one of the three best outfielders in baseball by the Sporting News before injury caused his decline after those seven years. Or Mathews, who as noted, was derailed by a shoulder injury which he never fully overcame.
Wow, that's a long post! But if you like WAR, more power to you. It is, however, true that it has its' drawbacks.
Enjoy your collecting,
Larry