Negro League Stats included in official MLB records

[Kidnapped18]

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/m...name-land/amp/

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought this happened quite some time ago.

[BigfootIsReal]

Hmmm, we'll see how this affects some prices

[G1911]

Major League Baseball will officially incorporate Negro Leagues statistics into MLB's historical records on Wednesday, reports USA Today. MLB elevated the Negro Leagues to "Major League" status in 2020 and recognized the "statistics and records" of approximately 3,400 players who played in seven leagues between 1920-48. Now they are part of the official record.


…What is the difference between recognizing the stats and records and being part of the record?

[anchorednw]

Originally Posted by BigfootIsReal

Hmmm, we'll see how this affects some prices

This won't affect anyone's prices. Cobb, Ruth or any of the all-time greats.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by anchorednw

This won't affect anyone's prices. Cobb, Ruth or any of the all-time greats.

+1
It will probably increase some of the Negro League players prices.

Not so much Cobby etc....

[aljurgela]

... I think that it is Artie Wilson now....

[oldjudge]

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

Given the sparsity of the stats, how could he have enough at bats to qualify?

[prestigecollectibles]

You can see and sort all the stats here:
Batting
https://www.mlb.com/stats/batting-av...ll-time-totals

Pitching
https://www.mlb.com/stats/pitching/wins/all-time-totals

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

I think a bigger concern is the incompleteness of the stats. In some cases it seems to pick up only a small fraction of the games an individual played.

[Touch'EmAll]

The legend of Satchell Paige is full of amazing stories. I want to believe he may have been the best ever. I cherish the couple Paige cards I own ('48 Bowman & Exhibit)) It seems appropriate, based on the stories, to include him in the discussion of greatest pitcher ever.

A few years ago I tries to get a handle on Satchell's stats. Unfortunately, with whatever research I could find on the internet, I came to the conclusion that there just is extremely minimal concrete stats. There simply wasn't enough meat to be found that could justify his legendary status. So you live with the stories, accept the fact not much in the way of stats and move on.

So now, how in the world is MLB able to come up with enough detail and solid stats, comparable to actual MLB player stats, to start including all the amazing, fully worthy HOF caliber players that played in the Negro Leagues ?

[toppcat]

Immaculate Grid's about to get REAL interesting!

[oldjudge]

I just think comparing Negro League stats to MLB stats is comparing apples and oranges. I don't know with 100% certainty which league was better, but I do know that they were not the same and calling the stats equivalent doesn't seem correct to me.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I just think comparing Negro League stats to MLB stats is comparing apples and oranges. I don't know with 100% certainty which league was better, but I do know that they were not the same and calling the stats equivalent doesn't seem correct to me.

I dislike that guys who have been identified as using or most likely using PEDs are in the record books with those who did not. Also is the guy who hit .300 in the 19th century as great a hitter as the guy who hit .300 in the 21st century?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Immaculate Grid's about to get REAL interesting!

Immaculate Grid has been counting Major Negro League Stats for the entirety of its existence, as Baseball Reference had made the integration of Negro League stats long ago.

But it gets tricky. I once chose Hank Aaron as a Negro League player and it come up as wrong, because he has no stats with any of the 7 Major Negro Leagues.

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by anchorednw

This won't affect anyone's prices. Cobb, Ruth or any of the all-time greats.

I'm not sure about this. Let's say you had a ticket or program from Willie Mays' first hit 2 days ago. You likely had a ticket or program for the MLB game in which he got his first hit. But now a ticket or program for his first hit game would technically have to come from a Birmingham Black Barons game. If such a program or ticket exists, then that piece of memorabilia just soared in value, while perhaps the pieces from his first MLB hit game become a little less valuable. Card prices might not change much, but perhaps prices for other memorabilia might.

[Exhibitman]

I don't think prices will do much of anything. When the NL numbers were initially canonized, prices on a lot of guys spiked, Wilson among them. That cat is already out of the bag.

Oh, and a few Wilsons:




A snapshot too, taken on opening day 1949 in San Diego:

[Swadewade51]

Love these Artie Wilson cards

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Misunderestimated]

Always thought no one would break Cobb's lifetime BA record....Someone (Gibson) did many years ago but we just found out.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ty who? Gibson now has the highest batting average ever. I think this is ridiculous--the competition was not the same. This is just a botched attempt to atone for past injustices.

And you think Ty Cobb's competition was the same as post-war players? lol

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

And you think Ty Cobb's competition was the same as post-war players? lol

Comparing players across eras is not the same as comparing contemporaneous leagues. Your point seems irrelevant to the one Jay raised. His point (and not commenting on its merit) would be as if MLB decided to include this year's minor league stats in determining leaders.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Comparing players across eras is not the same as comparing contemporaneous leagues. Your point seems irrelevant to the one Jay raised. His point (and not commenting on its merit) would be as if MLB decided to include this year's minor league stats in determining leaders.

I posted essentially the same thing that snowman did to Jay's comments. And I have never thought of MLB stats by era being relevant but when people are opposing the stats of a group of people who were outright denied the chance to play in the MLB, not because they were not good enough but because of the color of their skin, the argument comparing eras has some merit.

There is no perfect solution to this...sorta like the ML auction debate (though some very esteemed members did not see it as a debate)...I think most who look at stats take into account the era as well as the guys who are suspected of using PEDs.

In my personal opinion, having the stats included with MLB stats does not make those players any more legit than they already were. And at least our hobby shares that view if we take the prices alone for what the NL players' cards, postcards, etc sell for.