Don Sutton's Shameful Past

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

All this just to sell a Sutton card and a coin? If this guy doesn't write screenplays or sell used cars for a living he's in the wrong profession.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60496&item=3922284135&rd=1

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Posted By: Brian H

I think that this is a rather clever attempt to get around some ebay rules (and perhaps some laws in certain countries) by using the Sutton card to sell the Nazi material.
Just a guess. (the coin -- to whomever collects such stuff -- is probably far more valuable than a 1968 Sutton card is to a card collector).

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Posted By: Jeff O

If that's the case, it's a lot of work for nothing. eBay rules allow the sale of currency and stamps with Nazi logos (swastika) on them. Ironically, they don't allow you to sell other items with the same insignia such as medals, photos, etc.

Jeff

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Posted By: Julie

1) He made up the story.
2) The auction is "a good way to get rid of two things I don't want". End of story!

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Posted By: Joe P.

Why is it that I feel that the seller will vote for Bush again?

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Posted By: runscott

we better give Don Sutton a purple heart - that German coin might have scratched the card.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Why is it that I feel that the seller will vote for Bush again?

Because you're a knee-jerk liberal?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

I plan on voting for Mr. Bush, AGAIN.

Republican, and dang proud of it !

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'm voting for Gus Hall

Jay

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Posted By: Cy

Gotta love those knee-jerk liberals. They will help to change the country for the better!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Here's alittle something for al you knee-jerk liberals and right wing-nuts

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/this_land_af

Jay

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Funniest damn thing I have seen all year!

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Posted By: Joe P.

David Vargha:
This knee jerk Liberal served with the Marines in the Korean Police Action - 53000 KIA in less than 3 years.
Being that you're a supporter of future Bush Wars, tell us a little about yourself.
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Hal,
Now about that Nassua St address.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

Take note,the card is off-center to the left! Or is it Suttons right?

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Posted By: Joe P.

Sutton is not a Crafty Lefty - he's a Right Winger.

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Posted By: runscott

YOU were the one who brought politics into a vintage baseball forum, although I realize it was meant to be humorous. From what I've seen over the years it has almost always been liberals who have felt the need to do so (in this forum anyway), very rarely conservatives.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

There are enough problems with all the obnoxious celebrities nowadays who inject their political opinions into everything - let's save our opinions on those issues for a political board.

We all come here because of a shared interest, so why not keep discussion to that?

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Posted By: Joe P.

Your statement that I injected politics into a sports thread is true, but slightly inaccurate.
The seller (the star of the show)in his infinite creative wisdom, was the one that introduced politics into his one man sports show.
Part of his opening lines on stage - Third Reich, Nazi Ted Turner, Hanoi Jane etc.

Scott, for your information, in 1964 I voted for Barry Goldwater the man, not the conservative.
I voted against my party and a landslide.
In the long run, it turns out that my vote was the correct one. Hey hey LBJ.
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Greg Ecklund:
1. When you posted this thread, what did you expect?
Come on now, you posted a thread that's open to all kinds of discussion.
2. One other thing, some of those obnoxious celebrities are the ones that go and entertain our troops during an obnoxious war - then again, maybe you don't know about things like that.

However, I do agree with you, this is a vintage sports forum and Amen to that, but I still believe in the First Amendment.

BTW, would you by any chance have a vintage City map of Manhattan, with the Nassua and Ann St area?

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

1. When you posted this thread, what did you expect?
Come on now, you posted a thread that's open to all kinds of discussion.

I honestly didn't post it looking to start any kind of political discussion - I was looking for a '68 Sutton to complete my set and stumbled across that listing. Thought I would share it so everyone could have a laugh at the ridiculous lengths the guy went through to sell something.

2. One other thing, some of those obnoxious celebrities are the ones that go and entertain our troops during an obnoxious war - then again, maybe you don't know about things like that

Oh please - don't be so condescending. Obviously those who go to entertain our troops are worthy of praise for it, but why should the views of a celebrity on something out of their area of expertise constantly be given press?

I did not even support the war myself, but it becomes tiresome to keep seeing a generally ill informed group of simpletons constantly get an open forum to espouse their views. It is the ill informed nature of the views, rather than the views themselves, that makes them obnoxious.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

A very well-known dealer in baaseball cards said. "Bush has been in office for 4 years. It will take 75 years, or maybe a century, to undue the harm he has done."

Just thought I'd mention it, sharing his opinion and all.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Joe -- My point is that you, indeed injected politics into what was meant to be a humorous post. You know nothing about me. But to give you a little peak at my politics, I didn't vote for Bush in the 2000 GOP primary, but voted for him in the general election. I was skeptical about our reasons for entering Iraq and am against "police actions" in general. I am as upset with Bush about having no clear plan and exit strategy in Iraq as I was about Clinton having no clear plan and exit strategy in the Balkans.

I still stand by my "knee-jerk liberal" comment.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Given how fickle people tend to be, five years is even stretching it. Some of the Arab extremists that hate us have found another reason to do so in Bush, but given that they were attacking us even before Bush came into office I think his influence (while certainly a big negative) is overstated.

Even as an opponent of the war, I must say that while it will likely take 75 years to undo the damage to Iraq wrought by Saddam, saying that Bush caused that kind of lasting damage is being a bit extreme and melodramatic.

The real question that our country needs to deal with is this: How can a political system as great as ours produce two complete bums to run for President?

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Posted By: Joe P.

Greg Quotes:
"I did not even support the war myself, but it becomes tiresome to keep seeing a generally ill informed group of simpletons constantly get an open forum to espouse their views. It is the ill informed nature of the views, rather than the views themselves, that makes them obnoxious."
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I could not have said it better.

You just described Alfred E. Neuman AKA The Appointed One, and his entire administration.

Any more gems?

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Posted By: Dan

A picture that I took just last year. As if Bush had a damn choice. If you saw how these Iraqi's live, you would want to be there too. It is not about politics you knuckleheads, it is about freeing people from oppression and giving them the right to choose. It don't give one rats about whether an elephant or a donkey was in office, what we are doing here anyone would have went... unless that were a coward.

Regards, Military Lifer

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Posted By: David Vargha

Dan -- thanks for your service to our country. As the military is 100% volunteer now, your sacrifice means even more.

Joe -- thanks for your past service to our country as well.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dan,
Thanks for your service, I couldn't agree more.


May God bless the fine men and women who secure our freedom at home and abroad. My thoughts and prayers are always with you.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Joe P.

Hello Dan,
One of the picture that I have was never taken.
It's been in my head for over 52 years.
I had been in Korea for maybe just two weeks.
We were in reserve and not up on the line at the time.
Someone came around and told us that there was an enemy cemetery being prepared for burials.
I did what any 20 or 21 year old kid would do, got my camera and joined a jeep full of Marines going to the Munsan Ni enemy cemetery.
When we got there we found out that what was said, was true.
If you're squeemish, don't read on.
There they were, a grotesque lot, all unceremoniously lined up for burial.
There were some burned by napalm, others were missing limbs, and one in particular still stands out in my mind.
This one had the lower part of his torso torn open.
It was like a window into his stomach.
I can still see the pale blue, and pale yellow tubular like intestines.
Mind you, I can't remember the faces of any of them. ..... maybe I don't want to.
Needless to say, I never snapped a picture.
I couldn't, because as I gazed at the carnage I was glad it was the enemy, but I also visualized that in a war, carnage knows not friend or foe, the unfortunate all look alike.
That was only my second week there, but within the year that I was there, I found out that my gut feelings at the Munsan Ni Enemy Cemetery were right on target.

Dan, I would like to think that Bush and his administration dragged us into Iraq to free the Iraqi's, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Freeing the Iraqi's wasn't even on the list.

If you want to really understand the total picture, get it right from the horses mouth.
Their thoughts.
Their plan
Their Think Tank.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Stay well, and Semper Fi.
Joe P.

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Posted By: Dan

This post has sure taken on a different light from what it was originally intended, however, I feel that all whom wrote this night and last about their feelings on this topic have been fantastic. What I mean by this is, no matter who the person is, we are all free to speak what we feel. I am never going to dispute what any of you say, I truly respect your opinions, each and every one of them. What I love the most about the N54 Vintage Site are the people and all that they have to share. This brave Marine (previous post) whom fought in Korea is a true hero, anyone who puts boots on the beach is a hero. Hero's who do not often get their just rewards, well, you have my utmost appreciation from one warrior to another. For those of you whom have never served, I truly respect you too, for you are the one's who welcome the warriors home from the fight. You are our families, our loved ones, frankly you are the only thing that we look forward to when coming home (I mean that in a good way). I guess the short of this long winded statement is: each of you carry a warrior in you, walk as a warrior this day and all days to follow and know that we are the strongest nation of nations and we the people are what makes this nation great.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

While I don't disagree with you about the general incompetence of this administration, I can't help but agree with the "knee jerk liberal" comments from before. Using the childish "Appointed One" and "Alfred E. Neuman" garbage really just goes to show how pathetic both sides have become and doesn't contribute to any meaningful discussion. There are so many legitimate reasons for not supporting Bush, so why stoop down to that level?

Regardless of your views, thank you for your service.

Greg

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Regardless of why we went, I think what we are doing is a good thing.

If an Iraqi had written things about Saddam like some of what is written about Bush, he would be killed or tortured along with his whole family. That is the best reason I can think of for going there...

The reservation that I had, and still have, is that I'm not sure if the people there are ready for democracy. In order for the mission over there to succeed, they have to want it as badly as we want it for them, and I'm not yet convinced that is the case.

That said, I have moderated my position greatly since the start of the war. Hearing Senator Lieberman and other of the more thoughtful proponents speak at length about the situation over there and reading about the atrocities committed under Saddam went a long way towards doing that. I have no doubt that a regime led by his sons after Saddam's eventual demise would have been even worse, so we likely prevented a future bloodshed.

I'm convinced that what we are doing is good (even though I question the administration behind the actions), but I'm not convinced that we will succeed. I am hopeful though - regardless of what people think of Bush I would hope that people don't want us to fail there.

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Posted By: Julie

or--is Saddam really the only horrible dictator in the world? Are we going to depose them all? And kill a lot of innocent civilians to do it (not to mention our own men who get killed)? Why Saddam?
Or, as Joe said, why carnage? And why the CONTINUING carnage?

Then maybe someone will explain to me what happened to "No Child Left Behind"--which we were told 4 years ago was so desparately needed, but somehow never got funded--and what is happening to those children and young adolescents who so desparately needed more teachers, less crowded classrooms, better schools and better equipment 4 YEARS AGO--what are they doing now, hm? I think this is the sort of thing my friend meant by "75 years," not the devestation of war (Tokyo, in which more people were killed than Hiroshima, is a modern thriving city, and has been for many years).

Then will someone please explain to me The Patriot Act, which has completely robbed everyone of their right to privacy in the name of fighting terrorism?

Then there's Bush's new tax system, the Reverse Robinhood
System. Rob so proportionately much less money from the rich than from the poor that it makes one's eyes bug out!

Then there are the things that Bush hasn't brought off--yet. Reduce Social Security and Medicare, reverse Roe vs. Wade, deprive gay couples of their civil rights--beginning with the right to marry BY A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, YET!, and of course erasing the civil unions as well as soon as we get THAT done--

And have you met my friend Mr. Cheney?

I'm sleepy...

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Posted By: Joe P.

Greg Speaks:
"Regardless of why we went, I think what we are doing is a good thing."
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If your convictions are that strong, and you really believe that Bush dragged us in there to free the Iraqi's .... Why aren't you there?
Is it because you rather have someone else do it?
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And Greg drivels on:
"The reservation that I had, and still have, is that I'm not sure if the people there are ready for democracy. In order for the mission over there to succeed, they have to want it as badly as we want it for them, and I'm not yet convinced that is the case."
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What Democracy?
Is that the new name for Oil?
Where do you get your gridlocked programmed material from?
Don't tell me, let me guess.
The Project for the New American Century.
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More Gridlocked Drivels by Greg:
"That said, I have moderated my position greatly since the start of the war. Hearing Senator Lieberman and other of the more thoughtful proponents speak at length about the situation over there and reading about the atrocities committed under Saddam went a long way towards doing that. I have no doubt that a regime led by his sons after Saddam's eventual demise would have been even worse, so we likely prevented a future bloodshed."
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"so we likely prevented a future bloodshed."
What movie are you watching?
All you're doing is parroting and repeating an old standby programmed speech.
When all other spins fail.
The WMD, bacteriological warfare, the direct connection between Al Qaida and Saddam.
Fall back on a reliable vote getter.
The slaughter, rapes and mass graves under Saddam.

What you programmed parrots conveniently leave out is that Bush #1 set up the Iraqi's to uprise, and when they did, Bush never showed up to the dance, and the results of that is what you use as your vote getter.

Do you really expect any intelligent person on this board to continue to buy your spin?
All they have to do is go to the following site.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

It clearly spells out that Iraq was part of an agenda long before 9/11
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And yet another old and overuse spin by Greg, and the likes of him:
"I'm convinced that what we are doing is good (even though I question the administration behind the actions), but I'm not convinced that we will succeed. I am hopeful though - regardless of what people think of Bush I would hope that people don't want us to fail there.
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You have to luv the feeble attempt at throwing a guilt trip. ... check this one out.

"I am hopeful though - regardless of what people think of Bush I would hope that people don't want us to fail there."

You got it folks.
It's the old, "If you don't vote for going to war, or the money we need for it - You're Unpatriotic."

Sunday Patriot Greg,
Why don't you get your fanny over there, and when you come back we'll talk some.

I do hope that you win your vintage '68 Sutton.

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Posted By: Julie

Isn't anyone but me interested in that? While we spend LIVES and MONEY on Iraq (WHAT democracy?), this society's going to hell in a handbasket. But let's fight about the war some more. It's such a worthy topic!

Of course, we Californians have the double good fortune of having W as pres and Arnold as governor. How lucky can you get?

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Thank you for showing me that one can still be a childish jerk, regardless of age.

There is no reason to discuss anything further with you as you obviously aren't interested in any opinions other than your own. Oh well, you are the one that has to see a condescending ******* every time you look in the mirror.

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Posted By: runscott

If I had not met Joe at Chantilly two weeks ago, I would be going after him with a vengeance right now. But I can assure you he is one of the most intelligent soft-spoken gentlemen you will meet...but he has quite a powerful keyboard!

...also - I know some extremely Liberal women, one in fact who is one of my best friends. We have political discussions occasionally and while it might get heated, we don't fight, and I have never considered her viewpoints ridiculous, or wondered what time of the morning she started hitting the vodka.

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Posted By: Julie

for being a childish jerk, too?

Or am I just beneath notice?

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

It isn't the opinion I was posting about - it was the way Joe expressed it and how he attacked me in his response. You posted your opinions and expressed them forcefully, but you respected me and did not attack me specifically.

Joe on the other hand, crossed the line and acted like a jerk in his last post - even if you agree with him on the issues I would hope that you think his personal attack against me was uncalled for. You can oppose someone's views and still be civil - Joe was not.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Latino (0omygosh--or is it Chicano? Please advise..) that you have such a fire-y temper in written argument?

Those with the most experience must consider the feelings and the viewpoints of those of us who have less. It is not OUR fault that we've never seen a man ripped open in war!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Republican or democrat, consider the following:

Every arab terrorist in the world wants Kerry to win the election. Oh, and all the French do too.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

more than half the voting Americans!

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Posted By: steve k

I come to this forum because I deeply enjoy baseball card collecting and all of the various fun and challenges that accompany it. "Politics" is supposed to be off-topic here, but since the thread hasn't been pulled, here is my two cents...

One of my favorite quotes is from George Santayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Thankfully, George W. Bush remembers the past. The recent past is 9/11 - our president remembers what Bin Laden did. The slightly distant past is WW2 - our president remembers what Hitler did. When allowing certain types of people to keep feasting on their insatiable appetites for power and murder, then mankind will suffer horrific consequences until those people are stopped. If some of the posters in this thread believe that Sadaam Hussein somehow/someway wasn't going to assist some terrorist into one day igniting some chemical, biological or nuclear device in downtown Tel Aviv, London, New York, Washington, Los Angeles, etc., then that is simply being naive. Thanks to those who remember the past, including our outstanding military leaders and soldiers who understand and remember the past, Saddam Hussein will never get his chance to commit more mass murder.

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Posted By: Shoo

I respect everybodys opinion on this board very much ive been a card collector for 30 yrs on and off, i read these threads because i am some what of a dummy when it comes to pre-war cards, which is now all i collect. Im not here to start any crap however GEORGE BUSH is the worst thing to happen to america, yeah saddam should have been taken out of power, about 13 years ago when papa bush was in office. Having served in the military and being a american it amazes me how blind alot of people are on George bush. I could go all day on this lying, deceitful,peice of work that is our president. 900 american soilders are dead now and for what? Cuz GB didnt take the warnings seriously about 9-11 or maybe it take off the attention of the election he didnt win. Wheres BIN LADEN? Just out of curiosity what would anyone of you do if you found out about 9-11 and you were the pres.? GW didnt know what to do but scratch his head in a classroom in Flordia, I know for sure i wouldnt just sit there and do nothing but thats what are pres. did. The man and i use that term lightly has done nothing but lie since hes been in office lord help us all if he gets another term. P.S. im not a liberal I dont mean to offend anyone well except GWB

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Posted By: jay behrens

Julie, how could you forget that the majority of the voting public voted for Gore, yet he lost the election. So getting the most votes doesn't gaurentee a win.

Jay

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

with our surprise at the inclusion of a Nazi coin with a Sutton 1968 card.

It would be well to remember that a discussion such as this could never, anywhere there, in bed, in the closet, in your bathroom, ANYWHERE, have been held in Nazi Germany. And to keep it near the top of our priorities to keep it possible to have such discussions here!

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Posted By: steve k

Again - Remember the past. Remember what happened at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 with the surprise attack of the Japanese. If you have ever studied that era of history and know the circumstances surrounding that event, there was reasonable certainty of an attack one day coming soon from Japan. Yet we were caught off guard and surprised by it. I don't blame any American for that and I don't blame any American for 9/11. Sometimes an evil, clever enemy outsmarts us. Let's just admit that and move forward. Bin Laden and Al Quieda are an evil, clever enemy and like the empire of Japan, we must and we will do whatever it takes to destroy it. We did what we had to do in Iraq, BEFORE the evil, clever enemy had his chance to outsmart us. Thank goodness George W. Bush and our great military outsmarted him.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

AK47s?

Bush attacking Iraq is like the drunk looking for his keys under the lamp light, even though he lost them in the dark--because it's easier to see there.

There is no evidence (like there was--as you pointed out-- about the Japanese) that Iraq was ever going to attack us, or that it had weapons with which to do so.

Are we planning pre-emptive strikes against all unfriendly nations? Can you IMAGINE if Bush had been president during the Bay of Pigs, or any time during the cold war, when Russia had an atomic arsenal aimed at us, as we had aimed at them?

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Posted By: steve k

Julie - You are not remembering history. We (Kennedy) DID threaten to attack Cuba if the Soviet Union did not remove their missles. If they didn't remove the missles, we would have attacked. Remember also that for months we clearly warned Sadaam Hussein that we were going to attack - the only simple thing he had to do was to allow the inspectors to come in again.

And YES - that is the new doctrine of the United States - if we strongly feel that our country is threatened from an impending attack, then we are going to attack first. You should know that Israel has avoided another attack from an Arab country for over 30 years using the same doctrine. Can you imagine if Israel hadn't bombed that Iraq nuclear facility back in the 80s - I don't even want to think about the future horror that would have happened if Israel hadn't struck first.

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Posted By: runscott

Come on guys, join in ...it's a trio of "J"'s

(Steve, quit using logic)

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

In the middle of the crisis, in the dead of night,
Kennedy got a strange message from--supposedly--the premier of the U.S.S.R. saying that Russia was about to fire its Cuban-based missles at us. Period. Kennedy thought about it for two minutes (not 7!), and said "I don't believe it, and I don't believe he wrote that." Half an hour later, ANOTHER message came from the premier of Russia, saying, "Let's talk. I think we can come to some sort of agreement about Cuba." No mention was ever made of the first message again. We told the Russians they would have to remove their missles from Cuba, and Russia said, O.K, as long as you stop aiming yours at Cuba, and LEAVE HER ALONE. All of which was, not entirely satisfactorily, done.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Im not here to start any crap however GEORGE BUSH is the worst thing to happen to america

LMFAO!

DavidVargha@hotmail.com