Got burnt today

[clutch]

I buy things from a local online auction. They sell everything from repossessed vehicles to household items. They also sell tons of sportscards and memorabilia. This place is a breeding ground for fake signatures and counterfeit cards.

They have had so many complaints from buyers that they keep adding disclaimers to their descriptions. Now on every single sports related item, they put: Believed to be Not Authentic, Please Bid At Your Own Risk and Rely On Your Own Inspection and Judgement.

My first thought was that if they believe it to not be authentic then they shouldn't be selling it. I bought a PSA/DNA Barry Sanders autographed 8x10. When I picked it up, I found that it was a photocopy of a Barry Sanders PSA/DNA autographed photo. It was just a piece of paper in a frame.

I brought it to the manager and he just kept repeating the disclaimer in the title. He told me that they are not in the business of authenticating. He refused to give me my money back. I wasn't really looking to get my money back. I was mostly trying to bring this to their attention so they might flag the seller and maybe do some investigating. The only thing he wanted was me out of his office.

Even though there is a lot of junk, there are also some fantastic items that pass through there. I knew I was playing with fire, but figured if I kept myself educated then I would be less likely to get burned. For the most part, I have been successful. I have pulled some real gems out of that place.

I wasn't able to inspect the items this week and only bid on the Sanders because it was authenticated and looked good online. I never in a billion years would have thought it would be a computer print out.

I guess I have a few questions here.

I knew this place was bad news and kept coming back so I don't deny any responsibility. I'm wondering though. Can a place knowingly sell counterfeit items and legally hide behind a disclaimer and claim ignorance with no penalty?

Is there any branch of law enforcement that would even care enough to investigate these matters and what branch would that even be?

If you are selling this stuff and you know it is heavy in fakes (he told me he knew this and that is why they put in the disclaimer) then don't you have a responsibility to clean up that category rather than just putting in a disclaimer to cover your own butt?

I've made a lot of money buying and reselling things from that place. I only sell legit items, but does buying from them at all make me part of the problem? I'm thinking now that it probably does.

Are they just an innocent middle man and it is the buyer's responsibility to know what they are buying?

Should you require your buyers to inspect items in person to see if they are real, when it is not an onsite auction. If you are going to sell this stuff, shouldn't you employ someone that has some knowledge in this area. Some of this stuff looks good online, but when you see it in person, anyone with any knowledge of these items can see that they are no good. You could then stomp out any problems right at the door and not let them in.

Using the urine analogy of Mr. Stinson, I would go the opposite and say that this place is a bucket of pee with some sprinkles of Aquafina and I just took a big gulp. It is salty and I don't want to drink it anymore.

I'm not even upset about my item. I'm upset that management treated me like I was the criminal. I now know that I could sign a bunch of stuff at home and sell it there for boatloads of cash. Not only would they not do anything about it, they would actually protect me and make the buyer feel like the crook.

I'm not crying or looking for sympathy. I bought an item without looking at it in person first. My bad, my fault, I get that. I'm just curious what some people think and if there is anything one simple dude can do to keep other people from giving their hard earned money to crooks.

Sorry for the length of the post.

[Deertick]

I have been screamed at. I have been threatened physically, and with lawsuits. I have been escorted from the premises. I have been email bombed. Usually these are the ignorant, not criminal. AND (mostly) they severely curtail, if not completely stop, the crap.

I also have had responsible auction owners and auctioneers listen to what I had to say and remove the items and return them. And never accept them again. These are the ethical and moral people.

Then there are the auctions who will give lip service and just keep on truckin'. They will wink and nod as they describe the item. They will say "Buyer beware, but have you seen what a Ted Williams goes for on eBay?"
They are criminals who facilitate other criminals activities. They are adept at the legal tightrope, careful not to break the law themselves, at least without evidence of it. Until we can get someone in law enforcement to listen, they will continue to accept stolen items, counterfeits, and forgeries. And I will stay on their ass, sometimes loudly, most times quietly gathering info for when I meet the LEO whose job it is to care.

And I do not purchase anything from the criminals. To do so is to support their business model. I will attend, take photos and give my opinion to anyone who asks. My only problem is time. If you are at any auction within 40 miles of my house, I've got a bead on the forgeries. Currently there is one that falls into the 'criminal' category.

Contact your sheriff. They may be helpful. I have heard of such a thing, just not around here. If I understand correctly, you bid online? That may allow you to use the IC3. Also, file a complaint with your state licensing board.

[chaddurbin]

to the op,

you know the answers to the all questions you're asking. you know the place is bad, but you willingly eat up the crap because it's made you money. now for the first time you've caught a whiff of it you suddenly lost the taste? you play in dirt, you're gonna get dirty. suck it up and get back in there, or don't. all part of the game.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

to the op,

you know the answers to the all questions you're asking. you know the place is bad, but you willingly eat up the crap because it's made you money. now for the first time you've caught a whiff of it you suddenly lost the taste? you play in dirt, you're gonna get dirty. suck it up and get back in there, or don't. all part of the game.

I would tend to agree. Just look at this as a life lesson learned and move on...

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

to the op,

you know the answers to the all questions you're asking. you know the place is bad, but you willingly eat up the crap because it's made you money. now for the first time you've caught a whiff of it you suddenly lost the taste? you play in dirt, you're gonna get dirty. suck it up and get back in there, or don't. all part of the game.

Ditto. Well written, Chad.

[Wymers Auction]

I feel you are part of the problem whether you are buying good or bad. You are aware that they are crooked and you frequent their sales. I agree with the other post that you know all of the answers to your questions. If it makes you uncomfortable and you have to ask if it is right to bid or not you guessed it that is because it is wrong. Auctioneers that sell these items on a regular basis have heard from many that they are passing fakes and common sense tells them that consignors with endless supplies of Mantle, Ruth, Cobb, Dimaggio, and Williams are suspect at best. If they are operating with an auctioneers license please contact the licensing agency for their state. If they are merely an online auction company with no auctioneers license contact the local police and start there. I do not feel you are very sincere about turning them in though. These auction houses that routinely sell these items are aware they are fake and do not care. I have went through many of the same experiences as Jim has with trying to point auction houses in the right direction with many of the same results. We have however made a few reconsider what they are doing that were honest and even were partly instrumental in an online platform adopting policies for these items. Oh, and about the "Gems" they sell cheaply because others have chosen to do the right thing. Take it or leave it, it is only advice.

[steve B]

Any of the lawyers would know better, but I don't think the disclaimer would protect them from having sold something as obvious as a photocopy.

Ski areas have paragraphs of disclaimers on the lift ticket and still get sued when they're really negligent. That's why most of them close trails with even slightly poor conditions. The days of skiing a trail with patches of bare grass every 20 yards are long gone. In practice, the disclaimers only apply when you're doing something really dumb. (like skiing on a trail with little snow cover and jumping the grass patches Didn't have an accident, but easily could have)

I'd think that selling something under a disclaimer that even someone not intot he hobby could tell wasn't right would be counted as some sort of negligence. Proving it was deliberate rather than incompetence might be difficult. I'd still contact local law enforcement especially if they have a fraud dept. If the overall dollar value is large, that might interest them so be sure to mention the number of fakes rather than just the one item.

Steve B

[Mr. Zipper]

Yours is not an issue of authentication, it's a case of the item being completely misrepresented. A photocopy is not a "signed photo." If the item was listed as a signed photo, they should issue a full refund. Authenticity of the signature has nothing to do with it. The couldn't advertise a "car" and give the winner a cardboard cutout that looks like a car and say "oh well... Too bad."

I would file a complaint with the local law enforcement, any licensing agency and the BBB.

I echo the previous posters comments. When you patronize shifty sellers, you are allowing them to perpetuate their activities... Even if you are not the one getting burned on THAT day.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

I feel you are part of the problem whether you are buying good or bad. You are aware that they are crooked and you frequent their sales.

++++++++

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Yours is not an issue of authentication, it's a case of the item being completely misrepresented. A photocopy is not a "signed photo." If the item was listed as a signed photo, they should issue a full refund. Authenticity of the signature has nothing to do with it. The couldn't advertise a "car" and give the winner a cardboard cutout that looks like a car and say "oh well... Too bad."

I would file a complaint with the local law enforcement, any licensing agency and the BBB.

I echo the previous posters comments. When you patronize shifty sellers, you are allowing them to perpetuate their activities... Even if you are not the one getting burned on THAT day.

Excellent observation, Steve.

[JimStinson]

Very interesting thread.......And please forgive me if what I am about to say is an over simplification of the facts BUT...

I remember Ray Charles being interviewed on 60 minutes once and one of the questions they asked him is what he liked to do for entertainment when he wasn't performing. And he said he LOVED to play blackjack for money, the person doing the interview kinda laughed, And then he asked Ray that since he was BLIND isn't that kind of a risky form of entertainment ?

Ray seemed surprised and asked what they meant ....And the interviewer said "Since your blind aren't you afraid of getting cheated by the people your playing against ?"

Charles laughed like crazy and said "If I have to worry about being cheated I DON'T PLAY"
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

.....

[drc]

Their disclaimer might actually make it worse for them legally, as it can be read as their acknowledgment that they are aware that they sell bad autographs.

If you sell a car to the neighborhood kid with the disclaimer "The brake lines might be ready to snap, and the gas tank will probably explode," the answer is your disclaimer will be used against you in a court of law.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by drc

Their disclaimer might actually make it worse for them legally, as it can be read as their acknowledgment that they are aware that they sell bad autographs.

If you sell a car to the neighborhood kid with the disclaimer "The brake lines might be ready to snap, and the gas tank will probably explode," the answer is your disclaimer will be used against you in a court of law.

Yes but with that disclaimer on the car you could probably get it for alot less money , Just don't drive in the mountains and don't buy more than a gallon of petro at a time and you've made out like a bandit.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[drc]

They should issue autograph COAs that state "It's theoretically possible it's authentic." The fine print of COA assumes you watch a lot of Doctor Who.

[Exhibitman]

What a mess...

The old adage about not laying down with dogs to avoid getting fleas applies. You deal with "a breeding ground for fake signatures" and purchase an item that is turns out to be fake because you bought it sight unseen? Puh-leese...

A proper waiver or disclaimer is usually effective to eliminate liability for negligent conduct. Intentional acts like fraud are never proper subjects for pre-event waivers of liability. However, to prove fraud you would have to show that the seller knew it was a photocopy AND that you reasonably relied on a representation by the seller to the contrary. Since the seller states up front it is "Believed to be Not Authentic" you don't stand a snoball's chance in hell of convincing anyone you reasonably relied on anything the seller told you.

Stop doing business with thieves and you won't get burned.

[clutch]

Fantastic responses. Great information!!!

Let's change direction a little bit.

One of the guy's in the office told me that they know there are fakes out there and that is why they put the disclaimer in. They can't check everything. What do I want them to do?

How would you answer that question?

Keep in mind that this place is huge and they sell everything. Sports collectibles is probably a tiny fraction of their total sales. They may feel like it is not economically justifiable to employ an expert in that area.

Maybe they legitimately feel that the disclaimer is a step towards fighting it. I would think that any legitimate seller would never sell their stuff through a place that tells buyers they believe their stuff is fake.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by clutch

Maybe they legitimately feel that the disclaimer is a step towards fighting it. I would think that any legitimate seller would never sell their stuff through a place that tells buyers they believe their stuff is fake.

Bottom line: They know what they are doing, and you know what they are doing. No need to give them the benefit of any doubt, or candy-coat anything.

A legitimate, ethical business operator who receives a ton of complaints on one small portion of their business doesn't just add a disclaimer. They will either figure out a way to deal with the issues giving rise to the complaints, or shut down that small portion of their operation (i.e. stop taking autograph consignments). The only thing the disclaimer is attempting to fight is the deluge of buyer complaints.

If an operator is determined to cross that ethical line without any regard for the damage to his business and reputation, pointing a finger at them and saying "You should stop that!" is not going to have any effect.

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by clutch

Now on every single sports related item, they put: Believed to be Not Authentic, Please Bid At Your Own Risk and Rely On Your Own Inspection and Judgement.

I have placed bids at the same auction before. Only once have I made a purchase. I think they have 2 facilities/locations now so we may or may not be bidding against each other.

Anyways, it's not "local" for me .... it's a 3 hour drive, but a friend of mine bought a new gas furnace from them and asked me if I wanted to ride along with him to pick it up. So I hopped on the website real quick and figured since I'm going there anyways, I might as well win a card auction and see what it's all about. When we went to pick up our items they took us back into their huge warehouse. While they were loading his furnace I opened a couple of the other baseball card boxes and found what I was looking for.

Sold on the same day there was a box that showed a T205 Cobb along with some 1990's inserts, and that threw me off right away. Just a bit too odd. The auction description advertised cards from 1909-1999. That Cobb was a reprint.

So I asked to talk to someone about their listings. After rifling through my cards real quick I was fairly pleased, but now I knew they were selling reprints and not advertising it as such.

I spoke with a "manager" named Linda. When asked "why would you advertise your cards as "Believed to be Not Authentic" instead of "authenticity unknown"?" She replied that it's a legal disclaimer from the company's attorney office that must be put into the auction titles and then acted repulsed that I would ask such a Question. I left it at that.

I haven't purchased anything else from them but I still log in every Thursday to see what they have going on.

If you are close to the facility you have the ability to go in pre-auction and view the lots ..... some of us do not have that luxury and I think it's sick that they are selling reprints and advertising them the way they do.

[Wymers Auction]

I can tell you from experience that "believed to not be authentic" is not a normal disclaimer as I have never experienced this on any auction contract. That is a crooked way to do business pure and simple. Let me ask another question if you believe they sell fake autos then why would they not also sell fake pottery, art, marbles, and anything else? They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

I can tell you from experience that "believed to not be authentic" is not a normal disclaimer as I have never experienced this on any auction contract. That is a crooked way to do business pure and simple. Let me ask another question if you believe they sell fake autos then why would they not also sell fake pottery, art, marbles, and anything else? They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

Bingo ! a glass of urine with a "spalsh" of water ! Why even play that game ...use this analogy there is a restaurant where you live. They offer
1) Obnoxious waiters
2) Rude management
3) They have a sign posted outside that says "Our food is so bad we don't eat it"
4) The chef is combative and has a reputation for spitting in any dish sent back to the kitchen before he sends it back to your table
5) The menu says OUR FOOD WILL PROBABLY MAKE YOU SICK
6) The Guinness book of Worlds Records lists the establishment as the home of the WORLDS biggest cockroach

If the food was FREE would you eat there ?
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

Not sure if that was directed at me or not .... but to answer your question ... no. IMO they are crooked for misleading potential bidders by falsely describing the lots they have for sale. It wouldn't matter to me if it were a reprint card, a fake autograph, or a stinky bag of cat poop that was advertised as "scent free". I personally haven't dealt with that particular auction enough to safely accuse them of anything besides the cards. My friend's new furnace wasn't fake. As a matter of fact, he brought it home, hooked it up the same day, and is very pleased with his purchase. I am sure they have sold thousands of lots and have thousands of happy bidders, but the facts are still there, and now I know that at least 2 of us have brought to their attention the fact that they are peddling fake/reprinted sports related items.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by sdkammeyer

Not sure if that was directed at me or not .... but to answer your question ... no. IMO they are crooked for misleading potential bidders by falsely describing the lots they have for sale. It wouldn't matter to me if it were a reprint card, a fake autograph, or a stinky bag of cat poop that was advertised as "scent free". I personally haven't dealt with that particular auction enough to safely accuse them of anything besides the cards. My friend's new furnace wasn't fake. As a matter of fact, he brought it home, hooked it up the same day, and is very pleased with his purchase. I am sure they have sold thousands of lots and have thousands of happy bidders, but the facts are still there, and now I know that at least 2 of us have brought to their attention the fact that they are peddling fake/reprinted sports related items.

Steve not really directing this at you specifically. The facts were that you saw a reprint listed as an original and the original post stated that they sold many fakes. Therefore I concluded that they run a crooked business as the original post talks like they have a history of selling those items. I do not believe that any auction house sells fakes over and over and still does not know there is a problem. There are way too many bidders out there that are knowledgeable enough to identify these items and will be sure to let you know.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Steve not really directing this at you specifically. The facts were that you saw a reprint listed as an original and the original post stated that they sold many fakes. Therefore I concluded that they run a crooked business as the original post talks like they have a history of selling those items. I do not believe that any auction house sells fakes over and over and still does not know there is a problem. There are way too many bidders out there that are knowledgeable enough to identify these items and will be sure to let you know.

More importantly, as you pointed out earlier James, NOBODY puts a disclaimer like that on every listing without knowing there is a problem. That's ridiculous, and assures that you will ONLY have fraudulent material consigned in the future, as nobody with legit material will subject it to that kind of selling environment unless they are just completely unaware (as in, grandpa's estate had a lot of antiques and happened to include a few sports-related items that came along in the truck to the auction house drop-off).

[Paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

I can tell you from experience that "believed to not be authentic" is not a normal disclaimer as I have never experienced this on any auction contract. That is a crooked way to do business pure and simple. Let me ask another question if you believe they sell fake autos then why would they not also sell fake pottery, art, marbles, and anything else? They are all of the sudden crooked only when selling autos and baseball cards?

In reality, I don't believe any disclaimer can be defined as normal.
A disclaimer is a statement and has one purpose. A refusal to accept responsibility of legal liability .

I would be very interested in looking at one of there Consignor Contracts. All reliable, or respectable Auction Contracts should include the following listed in the contract.
I certify that I am the legal owner of any goods, merchandise and/or property consigned & have good title & the right to sell them. I guarantee that I have not misrepresented any item(s) consigned or commissioned including items listed above. I agree to return any & all money(s) received for items I have misrepresented, even if unknowingly, IMMEDIATELY, if requested to do so. I understand that I will be held legally responsible if I misrepresent item(s) consigned, even unknowingly.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What a mess...

The old adage about not laying down with dogs to avoid getting fleas applies. You deal with "a breeding ground for fake signatures" and purchase an item that is turns out to be fake because you bought it sight unseen? Puh-leese...

A proper waiver or disclaimer is usually effective to eliminate liability for negligent conduct. Intentional acts like fraud are never proper subjects for pre-event waivers of liability. However, to prove fraud you would have to show that the seller knew it was a photocopy AND that you reasonably relied on a representation by the seller to the contrary. Since the seller states up front it is "Believed to be Not Authentic" you don't stand a snoball's chance in hell of convincing anyone you reasonably relied on anything the seller told you.

Stop doing business with thieves and you won't get burned.

+1 Thanks Adam. I wrote about 3 responses that essentially said the exact same thing but didn't post them as they didn't sound like yours .

The auction house said it wasn't good, you bought it. Now you want to go to law enforcement for not knowing or being defrauded? See Adams response and live and learn.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

+1 Thanks Adam. I wrote about 3 responses that essentially said the exact same thing but didn't post them as they didn't sound like yours .

The auction house said it wasn't good, you bought it. Now you want to go to law enforcement for not knowing or being defrauded? See Adams response and live and learn.

The catch-22 of it all is that without injury, they will not act. That is the first thing they ask, "How were you affected?". When I tried to make it analogous to witnessing a (violent) crime, they basically shooed me away and said the injured party would need to make a report. Competently or not, Clutch became the injured party and now has standing. It still doesn't mean LE will do anything though....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

The catch-22 of it all is that without injury, they will not act. That is the first thing they ask, "How were you affected?". When I tried to make it analogous to witnessing a (violent) crime, they basically shooed me away and said the injured party would need to make a report. Competently or not, Clutch became the injured party and now has standing. It still doesn't mean LE will do anything though....

I can just see him trying to convince law enforcement to take a case when he was told he was buying garbage and then bought it. I think they probably have people who have actually been defrauded they should help more. If I were the law enforcement I would tell him not to buy things advertised as fake unless he wants a fake item. He received what was advertised. Just because other times he got real items that were advertised as garbage doesn't mean he was defrauded. In my eyes he has no standing.
(this isn't personal, Clutch is probably a great guy, we are only having a friendly debate)

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think they probably have people who have actually been defrauded they should help more.

I think that is my point. They were standing all around him. But they didn't know they were defrauded, so.....

Try to look away from the fact that this situaion is like someone reporting that they bought fake coke. The guy who called may be an idiot, but it is still a crime to sell fake drugs.

This place is knowingly selling bad stuff. Don't we have an obligation to attempt to help the innocents from being defrauded? And to prevent the knowing from moving it on down the chain to the rube at the end?? (I think we've all been that guy at least once )

[isaac2004]

The OP originally saw a chance to make a quick buck by flipping material that "was not guaranteed to be authentic", and when he didn't have a chance to flip, he tried to get his money back. Now he comes on here whining about the fact that he lost an opportunity to rip someone off. If that is not the case, I must be misinterpreting this thread, because to me, the OP comes off just as bad as the group he bought the forged item from, because any reasonable collector would stay away from those red flags. It is one thing to be tricked by a bad description or vague anything, it is another to know the item is not real and buy it, then get mad when the people you bought it from won't refund you.

My two cents

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think that is my point. They were standing all around him. But they didn't know they were defrauded, so.....

Try to look away from the fact that this situaion is like someone reporting that they bought fake coke. The guy who called may be an idiot, but it is still a crime to sell fake drugs.

This place is knowingly selling bad stuff. Don't we have an obligation to attempt to help the innocents from being defrauded? And to prevent the knowing from moving it on down the chain to the rube at the end?? (I think we've all been that guy at least once )

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!

Oh, I am not saying this auction house isn't doing something morally wrong, I just don't think it's actionable. They remind me a little bit of Coaches Corner. They do just enough to not be culpable.

[drc]

Adam, a lawyer, convinced me. While they probably shouldn't be selling the stuff, if they tell bidders 'This probably is not authentic' that's a darned clear statement.

I assume they're a wholesale, deal-in-everything-including-used-farm-equipment auction house and don't profess or pretend to be experts in autograph authentication.

[Exhibitman]

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

The law will protect a fool [negligence].
The law might protect a damned fool [gross negligence].
But the law won't protect a goddamned fool [reckless].

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

[clutch]

Clarification time.

It's amazing to me how what I thought I was writing and the message I was trying to convey got interpreted in the way it did.

Just so everyone knows this is not what happened

After buying things from an auction, I did not grow devil horns, rub money all over my body and laugh while running around a fire only to eventually buy a fake myself and seek revenge.

At no point did I claim to be a victim. I even went out of my way to express this. I couldn't care less about me losing my money. Me buying that picture and not getting my money back was in no way my motive for inquiring about law enforcement.

I used the Barry Sanders photo as an example. I didn't go to the office expecting a refund. I knew there was no way they were going to give me my money back. I knew that this wasn't a faked autograph. It wasn't my word against theirs. This was an indisputable copy. I wanted to bring this to their attention and see how they handled it. That's all.

My intention wasn't to make this thread into a character evaluation. Using my perfect 20/20 hindsight, I would have written my original post differently.

I didn't buy things there and look away because I was making money off of items I purchased. I hated what they did then as much as I do now. I buy stuff off Craigslist, flea markets, auctions, friends of friends, Ebay whatever. To me, this was just another place to buy stuff. I didn't think (as I do now) that legally buying legitimate items there could hurt anybody but myself. If I got burnt, I just lick my wounds, learn a lesson and move on. I'M NOT WHINING ABOUT MY STUPID PICTURE!!!

I didn't just get burnt there for the 1st time and decide to start a rebellion because it finally happened to me. I've bought other bad things too. I just figured you win some you lose some and with my knowledge I won more than I lost. It's just that this time I decided to write about it.

Here's my point. I bought things there because I knew the good from the bad. I could legally buy a legitimate item there. Not everybody knows the difference. I see fake cards go for hundreds of dollars and it makes me cringe.

I probably should have pointed out that that disclaimer is a new thing that they just started doing. It is also only on sports items and nothing else. A lot of my examples pre-date this disclaimer. Anyway, this isn't some dude setting up shop in a church basement. This place is huge. If any of you are want to know, I'm talking about Repocast in Michigan.

Repocast.com

There are thousands of people bidding on these things. I know some of you think I'm a bad man that kicks puppies and supports counterfeiting, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I actually care about these people and our hobby.

I know that a lot of people said to learn your lesson and walk away, but isn't walking away also part of the problem? If 1 person walks away there are 3 more to replace them.

My interest in the disclaimer is this. There is a difference between reprints and counterfeits. This isn't misrepresenting a reprint as an original. My understanding is that a counterfeit item is illegal to create, own, sell Period. Could a disclaimer really cover you if you are selling illegal items?

I'm not on a personal vendetta. I'm not mad about the photo I bought. I actually laughed to myself because I have never seen that one before and it caught me off guard. I'm not looking for the S.W.A.T. team to bust through the roof and detain everybody (even though that would be really cool). My realistic goal would be for someone to give them a kick in the pants to clean up the category.

Disclaimer or not, people are buying this stuff by the truckload and that is a problem.

And for your information, I never did anything illegal, immoral, dishonest. I only do legitimate business. And I most certainly never "ripped anybody off". I realize that even buying legit items there hurts our cause and I will stop buying there immediately.

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by clutch

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

deciding not to buy from those idiots is the only thing to do....It's like trying to buy a Kewpie Doll from Always Fake at Auction...WHY would I buy a THING from a site that sells 99% pathetic worn out forgeries to complete Nimrods???

Same applys here. Thanks for sharing and good decision not to buy from those LOSERS again. Let the greedy bastards buy their forgeries on the cheap. The old adage "you get what you pay for" applies here.

It is hard to believe that people are so damned stupid.

[clutch]

Originally Posted by isaac2004

The OP originally saw a chance to make a quick buck by flipping material that "was not guaranteed to be authentic", and when he didn't have a chance to flip, he tried to get his money back. Now he comes on here whining about the fact that he lost an opportunity to rip someone off. If that is not the case, I must be misinterpreting this thread, because to me, the OP comes off just as bad as the group he bought the forged item from, because any reasonable collector would stay away from those red flags. It is one thing to be tricked by a bad description or vague anything, it is another to know the item is not real and buy it, then get mad when the people you bought it from won't refund you.

My two cents

This is so far off base that I don't even know where to begin. Maybe you should save your 2 cents and actually have a clue what you are talking about before you start flinging accusations.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by clutch

Clarification time.

It's amazing to me how what I thought I was writing and the message I was trying to convey got interpreted in the way it did.

Just so everyone knows this is not what happened

After buying things from an auction, I did not grow devil horns, rub money all over my body and laugh while running around a fire only to eventually buy a fake myself and seek revenge.

At no point did I claim to be a victim. I even went out of my way to express this. I couldn't care less about me losing my money. Me buying that picture and not getting my money back was in no way my motive for inquiring about law enforcement.

I used the Barry Sanders photo as an example. I didn't go to the office expecting a refund. I knew there was no way they were going to give me my money back. I knew that this wasn't a faked autograph. It wasn't my word against theirs. This was an indisputable copy. I wanted to bring this to their attention and see how they handled it. That's all.

My intention wasn't to make this thread into a character evaluation. Using my perfect 20/20 hindsight, I would have written my original post differently.

I didn't buy things there and look away because I was making money off of items I purchased. I hated what they did then as much as I do now. I buy stuff off Craigslist, flea markets, auctions, friends of friends, Ebay whatever. To me, this was just another place to buy stuff. I didn't think (as I do now) that legally buying legitimate items there could hurt anybody but myself. If I got burnt, I just lick my wounds, learn a lesson and move on. I'M NOT WHINING ABOUT MY STUPID PICTURE!!!

I didn't just get burnt there for the 1st time and decide to start a rebellion because it finally happened to me. I've bought other bad things too. I just figured you win some you lose some and with my knowledge I won more than I lost. It's just that this time I decided to write about it.

Here's my point. I bought things there because I knew the good from the bad. I could legally buy a legitimate item there. Not everybody knows the difference. I see fake cards go for hundreds of dollars and it makes me cringe.

I probably should have pointed out that that disclaimer is a new thing that they just started doing. It is also only on sports items and nothing else. A lot of my examples pre-date this disclaimer. Anyway, this isn't some dude setting up shop in a church basement. This place is huge. If any of you are want to know, I'm talking about Repocast in Michigan.

Repocast.com

There are thousands of people bidding on these things. I know some of you think I'm a bad man that kicks puppies and supports counterfeiting, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I actually care about these people and our hobby.

I know that a lot of people said to learn your lesson and walk away, but isn't walking away also part of the problem? If 1 person walks away there are 3 more to replace them.

My interest in the disclaimer is this. There is a difference between reprints and counterfeits. This isn't misrepresenting a reprint as an original. My understanding is that a counterfeit item is illegal to create, own, sell Period. Could a disclaimer really cover you if you are selling illegal items?

I'm not on a personal vendetta. I'm not mad about the photo I bought. I actually laughed to myself because I have never seen that one before and it caught me off guard. I'm not looking for the S.W.A.T. team to bust through the roof and detain everybody (even though that would be really cool). My realistic goal would be for someone to give them a kick in the pants to clean up the category.

Disclaimer or not, people are buying this stuff by the truckload and that is a problem.

And for your information, I never did anything illegal, immoral, dishonest. I only do legitimate business. And I most certainly never "ripped anybody off". I realize that even buying legit items there hurts our cause and I will stop buying there immediately.

Nice job. FORE!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's an old adage that sums up how I look at things like this:

The law will protect a fool [negligence].
The law might protect a damned fool [gross negligence].
But the law won't protect a goddamned fool [reckless].

Dealing with known crooks and not reviewing the items closely before buying is reckless.

I agree with your logic, but now you've got me curious. And I'm asking seriously, not just arguing.

Is there some line where an item is so different from what the description says that the disclaimer wouldn't work?

In this instance, they say it's probably fake, but the degree of that is beyond what you'd normally expect.
It's a signed photo, with a PSA sticker.
Except ...

It's not a photo.
It's not signed by anyone, not even someone signing someone elses name.
It doesn't have a sticker.

It is a photocopy of what was described.
I suppose they could say "sure, that's what we meant. It may not be anything but a photocopy of something"

If that actually works legally then I'm amazed.

I suppose if it was a big deal the actual path of recourse would be sending it to PSA as a faked sticker, then PSA going after whoever did the copying for copyright/counterfeiting or ....?
Not that that would ever happen since that would open PSA up to a bunch of photocopies being sent in.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by clutch

Give me a little bit of credit. I always inspect the items first. I was out of town that week and couldn't. There were a lot of items there that looked interesting and I only bid on this one because it had a PSA sticker and the auto looked good. I matched the number up to the database and it matched.

Like I said. The photocopy was a new one and it caught me off guard.

No, I will take away credit based on that answer You clearly don't "always" inspect the item first because you did not inspect this item. You "usually" do so. This time you didn't and it happened to be a bad item. Whoops, that'll 'learn ya' for the next time you are tempted to dance with the devil in the fluorescent auction light.

I don't think anyone is really casting unfounded aspersions your way, it is just that: (1) some people have a difficult time finding the middle ground between nice and total flaming a-hole when it comes to responding to something disagreeable to them, and (2) you are repeatedly justifying and defending a fundamentally flawed position. Had you posted the story as a "caution, don't do this and don't deal with these crooks" story, you'd have gotten a polite response or two and it would be done. What you really wanted was for the folks here to respond with a sympathetic cluck of "yes, you poor thing, you were cheated and abused by the thieving auctioneer." You won't get that from most posters here because you participated in a known scamsters' auction absent even the most rudimentary precautions. It is like buying a $200 Mathewson from Roaches' Corner and being surprised that it is a fake. Shades of Claude Rains...



Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.

Now, as to whether an item ever falls so far from the mark that it would overcome a disclaimer, certainly that is possible but it is a straw man argument in this context. Let's say you bought an [allegedly] autographed photo and the guy handed you a basketball. Obviously, no disclaimer is going to prevent you from handing it back and asking for the picture. You don't need a fancy fraud argument for that--it is plainly not the item that you bid on. That is not the case with the scenario you presented. You did not receive a completely different item than what you bid on; you received exactly what you bid on but it turned out to be counterfeit, and you were told up front to assume that the item was not genuine.

[EvilKing00]

i would think that if the item says, "not believed to be real" then they are all good when it comes to selling that stuff

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

(1) some people have a difficult time finding the middle ground between nice and total flaming a-hole when it comes to responding to something disagreeable to them.

Possibly the single greatest quote I have ever read here.

On a side note, although I have never had this situation happen to me, something similar really pisses me off. I have (on many occasions) viewed something, called the auction for info / clarification, and then driven over an hour to find out it was a copy, or reprint, or whatever. My poor son has had to endure many a ride home with me-a-bitchin. Now he is very discriminating on which trips he chooses to accompany me.

[isaac2004]

He is my cousin (well in broad terms)

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Paulanthony

In reality, I don't believe any disclaimer can be defined as normal.
A disclaimer is a statement and has one purpose. A refusal to accept responsibility of legal liability.

You want to talk about disclaimers... what do you guys think about this one?



"Ticket holders acknowledge and agree that the Yankees' ban on foul/abusive language and obscene/indecent clothing does not violate their right to free speech . . . In addition, ticket holders further acknowledge and agree that by entering Yankee Stadium, they . . . waive, to the fullest extent that they may legally and effectively do so, any objection they may now or hereafter have to such ban and the penalties that the Yankees may impose for any violation of the same."

I have no objection to the Yankees' desire to forbid foul or abusive language and obscene or indecent clothing at their games... but I do object to their making it into a free speech issue. What's wrong with just saying that foul language and obscene clothing will not be tolerated, and leave it at that?

Why do they have to make it a free speech issue?

(Scan from Yankees Magazine, an official publication of the New York Yankees.)

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

You want to talk about disclaimers... what do you guys think about this one?



"Ticket holders acknowledge and agree that the Yankees' ban on foul/abusive language and obscene/indecent clothing does not violate their right to free speech . . . In addition, ticket holders further acknowledge and agree that by entering Yankee Stadium, they . . . waive, to the fullest extent that they may legally and effectively do so, any objection they may now or hereafter have to such ban and the penalties that the Yankees may impose for any violation of the same."

I have no objection to the Yankees' desire to forbid foul or abusive language and obscene or indecent clothing at their games... but I do object to their making it into a free speech issue. What's wrong with just saying that foul language and obscene clothing will not be tolerated, and leave it at that?

Why do they have to make it a free speech issue?

(Scan from Yankees Magazine, an official publication of the New York Yankees.)

Because the bulk of the country is uneducated, and New Yorkers are predisposed to argue. So they figured "Why not take the first idiotic argument out of the equation?"

[Exhibitman]

No, it is because of a series of court rulings on free speech that grant certain speech and assembly rights in public spaces, like malls or the walks in front of grocery stores. The purpose of the waiver [it is not an exculpatory clause disclaiming liability but a contract clause waiving a right, so it is a waiver not a disclaimer] is to preclude a 1st Amendment argument that the stadium is a similar public space in which certain Constitutional rights might exist.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Deertick

and New Yorkers are predisposed to argue...

No we're NOT!!

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

No, it is because of a series of court rulings on free speech that grant certain speech and assembly rights in public spaces, like malls or the walks in front of grocery stores. The purpose of the waiver [it is not an exculpatory clause disclaiming liability but a contract clause waiving a right, so it is a waiver not a disclaimer] is to preclude a 1st Amendment argument that the stadium is a similar public space in which certain Constitutional rights might exist.

That's what I said.