Ruth Postcard pick-up

[JoeyF1981]

Won this lastnight from probstein's auction. Did some research and found that this postcard was from 1914-1916 based on the manufacturer and style. Cant wait to get it.

[Jaybird]

Not to rain on your parade but I am suspicious about the postcard. I think the fact that the price remained so low is indicative that others were as well. I hope it is real and right as rain but my gut says no. If I had it in hand, I could tell for certain but the back along with the clarity of the image on the front cause me to pause.

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Not to rain on your parade but I am suspicious about the postcard. I think the fact that the price remained so low is indicative that others were as well. I hope it is real and right as rain but my gut says no. If I had it in hand, I could tell for certain but the back along with the clarity of the image on the front cause me to pause.

Well I did some research on the manufacturer stamp in the right corner which says "cyko". Cyko postcards were made between 1904-1920's. Ive checked several websites and they all indicate the same thing.

[jimivintage]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Not to rain on your parade but I am suspicious about the postcard. I think the fact that the price remained so low is indicative that others were as well. I hope it is real and right as rain but my gut says no. If I had it in hand, I could tell for certain but the back along with the clarity of the image on the front cause me to pause.

You beat me to it, Jason. I was skeptical when viewing the front, but then as soon as I saw the back, I immediately thought, "fake". I hope for your sake it isn't though.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JoeyF1981

Well I did some research on the manufacturer stamp in the right corner which says "cyko". Cyko postcards were made between 1904-1920's. Ive checked several websites and they all indicate the same thing.

I am with Jason. I don't get a warm fuzzy on the authenticity of it. It might be good...but sure doesn't look like the other 250+ RPPC's I have from that time frame. It almost looks like a second generation photo.

[ullmandds]

I also am skeptical...most likely not real. What's with his eyes?

[glchen]

I think the postcard went so low because probstein put the era of the postcard at postwar 1942-80, so it probably didn't come up in a lot of searches (like mine!). The backstamp does indicate what Joey said: Link. As the others have said, hopefully, it's not a fake.

[Leon]

To give an idea here is what some real photo postcards look like from that era. BTW, I don't even like the way the back stamp looks.

[JoeyF1981]

http://www.playle.com/realphoto/

this is one of the websites I came across to date it.

[Jaybird]

It's not about the back stamp. You're right on that. The problem is that someone is making stamps for these postcard backs and stamping them on repro pictures. If you look at the way the stamp on the back looks, there is pooling on certain letters and the Cyko itself isn't fully stamped. I just don't think it looks right. I've looked at 1000s of PCs and that's my opinion.

The fact that it has a stampback that is correct for the era is moot. The question is the authenticity.

And as for the price, many collectors saw it. I heard from two at least who would have bid this up into the 1000s. It didn't happen and that speaks to what postcard collectors felt about it.

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

It's not about the back stamp. You're right on that. The problem is that someone is making stamps for these postcard backs and stamping them on repro pictures. If you look at the way the stamp on the back looks, there is pooling on certain letters and the Cyko itself isn't fully stamped. I just don't think it looks right. I've looked at 1000s of PCs and that's my opinion.

The fact that it has a stampback that is correct for the era is moot. The question is the authenticity.

And as for the price, many collectors saw it. I heard from two at least who would have bid this up into the 1000s. It didn't happen and that speaks to what postcard collectors felt about it.

youre right and I was very skeptical too that it didnt go for higher, but I figured with the research I did that it was legit. I wish I wouldve posted this before the auction ended to get everyones opinion.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JoeyF1981

youre right and I was very skeptical too that it didnt go for higher, but I figured with the research I did that it was legit. I wish I wouldve posted this before the auction ended to get everyones opinion.

Generally speaking you don't want to post live auctions you are interested in unless you want more competition PM or email one of our members, or me, to get some more ideas. If I don't know then I can usually direct you to someone that does.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I saw it as soon as it was listed and placed a minimum .99 bid and watched it. I am also under the assumption that it is fake.

[JoeyF1981]

I emailed probstein and he's telling me "based on the source it came from it should be good"..dont really know what to make of that

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by JoeyF1981

I emailed probstein and he's telling me "based on the source it came from it should be good"..dont really know what to make of that

Is it Barry Halper?

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Is it Barry Halper?

lol...probably

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by JoeyF1981

I emailed probstein and he's telling me "based on the source it came from it should be good"..dont really know what to make of that

The good news is that Probstein is will stand behind it if it's determined not to be authentic. However, I would send it in for grading as soon as you get so as not to delay the refund period.

[Greenmonster]

I email Seller the day it was posted, questioning the authenticity, and never heard back.

[JoeyF1981]

I did a search and i cant find that exact image of ruth

[Runscott]

I have owned two Ruth RPPC's (not the same image as yours) with period-legit backs, that were both fakes. Both were good enough to fool another knowledgeable collector and to almost fool me, but I sent them to an auctioneer who handles such things regularly, and he said "they do not look right" and sent them back to me. Now I own enough examples of each back that I could spot these fakes quickly by comparing to real ones, but if all you have is the fake, it can be tough.

Hope yours is real.

[smtjoy]

Well Probstein offers a 14 day return, if it was me I would return it asap.

Humm suspicious looking early Ruth PC that does not look right and having a consignment house sell it .........run

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Well Probstein offers a 14 day return, if it was me I would return it asap.

Humm suspicious looking early Ruth PC that does not look right and having a consignment house sell it .........run

I actually just got off the phone with him. He stated the seller was reputable but he understands my concerns. He was actually looking at it when I was on the phone with him and he said he wasnt sure. I asked him for a refund and he had no problem with it. Im definitely bummed out. I was really looking forward to adding it to my collection but like you all of you said theres too many red flags

[bcbgcbrcb]

An authentic mid-1910's Ruth postcard like that would bring $15K - $25K these days so one that sells on e-bay for a few hundred dollars, almost guaranteed to be bad..........

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I have owned two Ruth RPPC's (not the same image as yours) with period-legit backs, that were both fakes. Both were good enough to fool another knowledgeable collector and to almost fool me, but I sent them to an auctioneer who handles such things regularly, and he said "they do not look right" and sent them back to me. Now I own enough examples of each back that I could spot these fakes quickly by comparing to real ones, but if all you have is the fake, it can be tough.

Hope yours is real.

How did they determine they were fakes?

[Jaybird]

Sorry Joey, but I think you did the right thing. The fact that Probstein or anyone else says that it came from a reputable source means nothing. As Scott said, he's got some fakes in his collection. If he were to pass his collection on and the person selling his collection didn't know, those could come into the market as the real deal. The collection isn't the issue, the auction house should do it's own diligence to figure out what they are selling. I understand that they can't know everything which is why they have a refund policy.

I think you need to look at the totality of the story here as well. When i'm looking at postcards, if I see a Ruth or a Negro League subject, I look even closer than I would if it was just a random town team. Think about whether there is incentive to deceive. In the case of Ruth, he has to be the subject of the most fake items in our hobby. So, when I see a Ruth item, I treat it with suspicion and until I can quiet my own mind about those suspicions, I do not pursue.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Sorry Joey, but I think you did the right thing.

I disagree, but let me explain why. Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about post cards from any era. However, I do know that it comes with a 14 day return policy and the seller is quite reputable. If I were Joey, I would complete the transaction if Probstein is willing to extend the return policy until its authenticity can be determined - have enough time to send it to SGC and back. It it's real, he hits a nice payday. If it's fake, he returns it for a refund and is only out a few dollars for grading and shipping. That's what I would do. Then again, I'm a gambler.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I disagree, but let me explain why. Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about post cards from any era. However, I do know that it comes with a 14 day return policy and the seller is quite reputable. If I were Joey, I would complete the transaction if Probstein is willing to extend the return policy until its authenticity can be determined - have enough time to send it to SGC and back. It it's real, he hits a nice payday. If it's fake, he returns it for a refund and is only out a few dollars for grading and shipping. That's what I would do. Then again, I'm a gambler.

He did the right thing. You would have lost this bet. As said, I have hundreds of exemplars.....none look like that.

[pete zouras]

with a blank back in the mid aughts. I paid $70, posted on this board about it, and after several replies that it was a repro from the 70s listed on ebay and felt lucky to get $20. Lesson learned.

[Exhibitman]

Here is a Cyko-backed PC from 1910 that is 100% legit. Look at the difference in back printing and image clarity.



To my eye yours is a 2nd generation image and a stamped back.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JoeyF1981

How did they determine they were fakes?

As Adam pointed out, the main thing is image clarity.

I thought they were fakes because they just didn't look right. You develop that sense after looking at lots of real examples (same with cards, photos, etc.) - if these fakes were the first you saw, you would probably be fooled. The person who I sent them to had the same reaction. Whoever created these used real photos for the fronts, and created the backs using a method that was similar to how the real ones were created (or at least, achieved similar results), but the quality wasn't quite as good.

By the way - I do NOT have these in my collection, nor do I have any other fake postcards. I sent these back to the guy I got them from. He was certain that they were real, so I guess someone eventually got screwed.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

As Scott said, he's got some fakes in his collection. If he were to pass his collection on and the person selling his collection didn't know, those could come into the market as the real deal.

Hope you are referring to a different 'Scott' - I have no fake postcards in my collection.

But there are plenty of collectors trying to dispose of fakes by sending large collections to auction houses, and not disclosing all the facts. I've gotten bitten by magazines missing pages, valuable sports guides missing LOTS of photos, etc., etc. In all cases the auction house acted stunned - obviously, no due diligence checking the items; however, the seller should also have his ass kicked if he lied about quality.

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here is a Cyko-backed PC from 1910 that is 100% legit. Look at the difference in back printing and image clarity.



To my eye yours is a 2nd generation image and a stamped back.

Heres a legit babe ruth cyko postcard

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Hope you are referring to a different 'Scott' - I have no fake postcards in my collection.

But there are plenty of collectors trying to dispose of fakes by sending large collections to auction houses, and not disclosing all the facts. I've gotten bitten by magazines missing pages, valuable sports guides missing LOTS of photos, etc., etc. In all cases the auction house acted stunned - obviously, no due diligence checking the items; however, the seller should also have his ass kicked if he lied about quality.

Scott, no offense meant. I must have misread your earlier post. I thought you said you had a few as examples. My mistake. Many collectors keep examples of fakes in their collections for just that reason, to have an example. No aspersions meant nor cast by my statement.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by JoeyF1981

Heres a legit babe ruth cyko postcard

Why do you say that? This one looks bad too.

looks like you found whose collection this came from, though...

http://s450.photobucket.com/user/Bla...?sort=3&page=1

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Why do you say that?

got it from this website

http://centuryoldcards.com/1920/1920-30Postcards.html

Was comparing the back print

[drcy]

For future reference, I would image the real photo postcard stock from a year would be very similar across the board for a manufacturer. Not only was it factory manufactured, but it was special photographic paper not regular paper. May have a consistent thickness. Though there may be special finishes-- ala smooth or matte.

[Jaybird]

Isn't BlackItalian Joey Fatino or whoever? That's whose photobucket these images were on.

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Isn't BlackItalian Joey Fatino or whoever? That's whose photobucket these images were on.

yes thats me, why?

[Runscott]

Here are the two fakes I mentioned earlier - one of them is a dead ringer of the Ruth just posted.

Did Joey finally go legit, or is this another 'fishing for suckers' thread?

[ScottFandango]

Very interesting...

Where have I heard of blackitalian?

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Here are the two fakes I mentioned earlier - one of them is a dead ringer of the Ruth just posted.

Did Joey finally go legit, or is this another 'fishing for suckers' thread?

lol...Yes I went legit. "fishing for suckers"??? I purchased a item from probstein and questioned its authenticity and wanted to get peoples opinions on it. I ended up talking to probstein and received a refund based on the helpful information I got from members. I posted the postcard from the original auction and posted another postcard from a website I found that is stated as authentic and wanted to compare backs. Im on here to learn from you guys and be a legit member on this forum.

[sox1903wschamp]

I saw it and wondered why it was not graded as well as looking funny. And then totally forgot about it (on purpose).

[prewarsports]

Count me in among those who saw it, saw the back, did a double take based on the back being "correct" and determined it was fake.

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Count me in among those who saw it, saw the back, did a double take based on the back being "correct" and determined it was fake.

The thing that looked odd to me was the way the photo looked. His eyes looks weird and tue fact that it looks like the photo was torn on the lower right hand side made me think twice

[EvilKing00]

I could of swarn that I saw re-makes (fakes) of these that were printed in 1983, but not exactly sure. I saw a few about 2 weeks ago on ebay, looked like this (not sure if it was exact) after some digging found was remade in 1983.

[slidekellyslide]

Here is a legitimate CYKO back...these came straight out of an unopened pack from 1916.

[joeadcock]

Cool Dan

[JeremyW]

Thanks for posting that, Dan. It's finds like that which help us sort out authentic items from the not-so authentic.

[ksfarmboy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Here is a legitimate CYKO back...these came straight out of an unopened pack from 1916.

What does the front of those look like Dan? I have a canister of postcards that still have the paper wrapped around them. I was always curious as to what the front of them looked like.

[joeadcock]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

An authentic mid-1910's Ruth postcard like that would bring $15K - $25K these days so one that sells on e-bay for a few hundred dollars, almost guaranteed to be bad..........

Phil, you mentioned the high price on mid 1910's Ruth RPPC's.

What are Ruth RPPC's going for from the 1920-1929 years?