I guess we have a market decision on Ali's RC

[Exhibitman]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Hemmet...C/401457383949

A PSA 9 1960 Hemmetts went for $15,109.09. Only a handful of boxing cards I know of besides the 48 Leaf Graziano have sold for over $10,000, so this is a big deal.

There've been lots of debates, here and elsewhere, over what constitutes Ali's RC. I've always advocated for the Hemmetts card. I guess a few bidders were thinking the same thing.

Some other cards in the PWCC auction had interesting results:

1962 Rekord Clay PSA 8 $425
1951 Ringside
--Tunney PSA 7 $385
--Marciano PSA 7 $711
1958 leaf Louis PSA 6 $271
1926 Spalding Dempsey PSA 8 $282
T220
--Wilson PSA 7 $305
--McAuliffe PSA 7 $135.50
--Hart PSA 8 $380
--Burns PSA 7 $135.50
--Burke PSA 8 $380
--Beecher PSA 8 $380
--Barry PSA 8 $271

Your thoughts?

[Peter_Spaeth]

A grade on a hand cut card, which is indicative in large part only of how cleanly someone was able to cut it from the full panel, is not all that meaningful to me. Sure it doesn't have the characteristic abrasion on the back which so many do have and that accounts for a lot of minty looking 4s, but still. I'd rather have the panel. Oh wait, I do have it, although not in high grade. As to the rookie card question, I do agree with Adam that it is his rookie.

[pkaufman]

Looks like the boxing market is heating up......still many undervalued issues.

[Exhibitman]

I sure hope so...

Maybe not meaningful to you, Peter, but it meant $15K to at least two people. I agree, the full panel is better but registry uber alles.

[Dpeck100]

Let me go check but I believe a PSA 9 went for 40k in a recent Heritage auction.

[Dpeck100]

https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing/196...umbnail-071515


Yeah $40,800.


I don't think the registry has anything to do with a card selling for more than the page. It is being treated like a card and I personally would much rather own the individual Clay than the page with the others on it. I think if you polled 100 collectors at least 90% would rather the single cut out card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing/196...umbnail-071515


Yeah $40,800.


I don't think the registry has anything to do with a card selling for more than the page. It is being treated like a card and I personally would much rather own the individual Clay than the page with the others on it. I think if you polled 100 collectors at least 90% would rather the single cut out card.

That's a pretty big disparity between those two auctions, wow. David I don't doubt you are right, but I don't understand the thinking, a piece of a cut up 4 on 1 Exhibit is pretty worthless even if it depicts Ruth, what's the difference? Maybe these panels were intended to be cut up? Even so, I prefer the intact item.

[frankbmd]

How could one possibly cut one of those panels?

Peter and I share in our appreciation of the value of Wilma Rudolph's inclusion on the 4 in 1.

[CW]

I'm not sure what I'm more surprised about.

The fact that this Ali card sold in Heritage for $40,000

or

That Adam wasn't aware of the sale.

YOU'RE SLIPPIN', MAN!

Cool card and interesting disparity between the two sales.

[Exhibitman]

Heritage doesn't even send me a catalog. I missed a ton of their stuff. Not sure why I made their shit list, but I guess I did. $40,800...wow. So totally not worth it.

[Dpeck100]

Peter I would rather a pack driven item whether it be a sticker or a card. I am not a cut card guy but it is a very early artifact from his days so it has to be worth something. If it was a dime a dozen the Pop would be higher. At this stage of the hobby you do not see many uncut sheets that could yield higher grades.


15k to 40k is a huge range. Hard to tell what this card is really worth at the moment.

[th38larg]

Price on the T220s is surprising.

[wrestlingcardking]

I did and it is going to be making a trip to Newport Beach.

Originally Posted by frankbmd

How could one possibly cut one of those panels?

Peter and I share in our appreciation of the value of Wilma Rudolph's inclusion on the 4 in 1.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Heritage doesn't even send me a catalog. I missed a ton of their stuff. Not sure why I made their shit list, but I guess I did. $40,800...wow. So totally not worth it.

Ah, that explains it. Just bustin' chops and also recognizing your rep as a boxing card guru of sorts.

[Dpeck100]

http://www.boxing-cards.com/

Speaking of gurus are you guys familiar with Martin Bradford? I bought all of the Tyson's he had listed in 2010 from this site.

[wrestlingcardking]

I've bought from Martin in the past as well.

[Exhibitman]

Martin's a good guy. He sells a lot on eBay.

[GasHouseGang]

I guess you can call this an Ali rookie if you want, but it still doesn't seem like a legitimate "card" to me if it is cut from a sheet. Plus, even as a PSA9, the back doesn't look right because some of the letters get cut off at the top when removed from the sheet. Couldn't a magazine cut or poster cut from the same year qualify as a rookie? What if PSA refused to give this a numerical grade, would it still be called his rookie?

[Exhibitman]

For me yes I would still call it his rookie. There are tons of cut cards. Try the W section of the ACC. The structure of the sheet indicates an intent to cut. Each card is numbered and the effort is made to align the back bio with the front. Seems ‘cardy’ to me.

[samosa4u]

Take a look at the back of the card and what does it say? Hemmets "ournal." What the hell is an "ournal?" Oh yes, wait, the letter "J" is missing, right?

These were not meant to be cut out into cards and PSA should not be grading them, period!

[Mark Webster]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Take a look at the back of the card and what does it say? Hemmets "ournal." What the hell is an "ournal?" Oh yes, wait, the letter "J" is missing, right?

These were not meant to be cut out into cards and PSA should not be grading them, period!

PSA. A third party authenticator of cards and collectibles. So in my opinion it’s acceptable. As far as I’m concerned the issue is with the panel being cut!

[Exhibitman]

Hi Mark; good to hear from you. I agree.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

The debate over boxers' rookie cards goes back to the dawn of man. We'll never all agree on one but it's always been a lot of fun to discuss it as long as emotions don't get in the way. That's never been the case before since there's never been real money on the table. Unfortunately, now there is and I think people are going to get territorial about this.

I never considered the Hemmett's (I don't even know if I'm spelling it correctly) a card. My opinion carries as much weight as my last fart. I also don't own a Hemmett's. Do I not consider it a card because I don't own one or so I not own one because I don't consider it a card? I don't know.

I'd much rather have one of the '64 or '65 cards. Give me something from a pack.

Arthur

[wrestlingcardking]

I like the Lampo Cassius Clay card the best, but I do agree with the Hemmets card being able to be cut and graded by a third party authenticator. I think the debate is really what the market decides and it appears that the Hemmets can stand with any of them.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Take a look at the back of the card and what does it say? Hemmets "ournal." What the hell is an "ournal?" Oh yes, wait, the letter "J" is missing, right?

These were not meant to be cut out into cards and PSA should not be grading them, period!

Some have the J, it's just a question of how well the printing was aligned.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Some have the J, it's just a question of how well the printing was aligned.

If the letter "J" is missing, then how did it get a PSA 9?

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

If the letter "J" is missing, then how did it get a PSA 9?

That's what I was wondering. Can anything that misaligned on the back be a PSA 9? No regular card would get that grade.

[Exhibitman]

All the early ones are cool; my personal fave is this one:



On account of it was his first card issued in the USA.

[Arazi4442]

I'm partial to the Lampo Clay card as well. Though I see the argument for the Hemmets Journal, it still doesn't feel like a "card"to me.

I'm also not quite ready to agree that the market has spoken on Ali's RC, espically by way of a PWCC auction. The price difference between the PWCCand the HA auction seems out of the norm. With what I've read on this forum about PWCC, it seems just as likely that there's a group of people with a number of higher grade Hemmets cards using this auction to artificially raise the market value.

The commission on one sale (even a big $ sale like this one) is completely worth it if you have a handful of 7s, 8s and 9s you'd like to increase the value of by way of a pre determined, super high value auction.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

I'm partial to the Lampo Clay card as well. Though I see the argument for the Hemmets Journal, it still doesn't feel like a "card"to me.

I'm also not quite ready to agree that the market has spoken on Ali's RC, espically by way of a PWCC auction. The price difference between the PWCCand the HA auction seems out of the norm. With what I've read on this forum about PWCC, it seems just as likely that there's a group of people with a number of higher grade Hemmets cards using this auction to artificially raise the market value.

The commission on one sale (even a big $ sale like this one) is completely worth it if you have a handful of 7s, 8s and 9s you'd like to increase the value of by way of a pre determined, super high value auction.

The Heritage example went for 25k higher than the PWCC.

Here is the pop report.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/non-spor...hand-cut/40203

The winning bidder on the PWCC looks very legit and with the Heritage sale taking place prior I think it is much more likely the seller was pissed with the final price and the buyer thrilled.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The Heritage example went for 25k higher than the PWCC.

Here is the pop report.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/non-spor...hand-cut/40203

The winning bidder on the PWCC looks very legit and with the Heritage sale taking place prior I think it is much more likely the seller was pissed with the final price and the buyer thrilled.

Wow David, I read those two auctions the opposite of what they really were. Guess I'm getting cynical in my old age. 😀 Thanks for setting me straight!

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Wow David, I read those two auctions the opposite of what they really were. Guess I'm getting cynical in my old age. �� Thanks for setting me straight!

I can't speak for if the Heritage sale went through or the PWCC and obviously there have been a lot of bogus auctions over the past few years and probably always.

I am not a big fan of hand cut cards personally and if there was a pack issued card of him from this year I think it would make the 15k look cheap.

Personally I don't own any Clay/Ali cards but he does have a lot of great cards out there to choose from so I could see him being highly collected and this is a very early Clay so it has to be worth something. The fact that the Pop is only 4 with no 10's helps support this price. Everyone knows the card is considered valuable who is in the hobby so you could make the bet it will stay low. Time will always tell on how many pop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

If the letter "J" is missing, then how did it get a PSA 9?

I can't speak for the grading standards, only for the fact that some have the J. Look on ebay, there is a guy who specifically touts his cards that way.

[G1911]

Those T220's went pretty high for commons. Hope the lower-grade ones stay dirt cheap, love collecting this set and all its variants

[wrestlingcardking]

I had no idea that 105 of them have been graded to date.......good amount although not a whole lot when thinking about Ali.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The Heritage example went for 25k higher than the PWCC.

Here is the pop report.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/non-spor...hand-cut/40203

The winning bidder on the PWCC looks very legit and with the Heritage sale taking place prior I think it is much more likely the seller was pissed with the final price and the buyer thrilled.

[wrestlingcardking]

Originally Posted by wrestlingcardking

I did and it is going to be making a trip to Newport Beach.

Some people assume that you can just cut the card and get a high grade but it doesn't work that way. In fact, many times you will find that a panel has a crease or bend and no amount of cutting is going to be able to fix it. I made my hand cuts and just found out that I got a PSA 5 for my Hemmets Cassius Clay. I'll be happy with this one in my collection.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wrestlingcardking

Some people assume that you can just cut the card and get a high grade but it doesn't work that way. In fact, many times you will find that a panel has a crease or bend and no amount of cutting is going to be able to fix it. I made my hand cuts and just found out that I got a PSA 5 for my Hemmets Cassius Clay. I'll be happy with this one in my collection.

An abrasion on the back is also very common.

[wrestlingcardking]

The stock of the paper is between flexible and cardboard stock (semi-rigid)....so any bend on that card stock would probably drop the overall grade to a PSA 5 at best.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

An abrasion on the back is also very common.