T206 Donlin (fldg)....name your Tough T206's ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

"Turkey Mike" Donlin presents a real mystery with his 3 cards in the T206 set.

The 1st card of him (fielding) is a very tough one to find, as it was included with the 12 cards issued in
the "150-only" Series. Most of these Donlin cards are found with Piedmont 150 backs. To a lesser extent
with Sweet Caporal 150 backs, and seldom with a brown Hindu back. No Sovereign 150 cards have been
confirmed.
And the reason for the limited run of this Donlin card is due to him dropping out from BaseBall at the end
of the 1908 season to seek a vaudeville career. He returned for the 1911 season.

Donlin mainly played for NY (Giants), and was quite a good hitter (when he was in the mood for playing).
His career batting average = .333 for 12-years; and, in 1905 his career Hi BA = .356 (606 AB).

Now, I find this very puzzling, why the T206 guys continued to issue a 2nd card of him (seated) in the
150/350 Series.

Furthermore.....
a 3rd card of him (batting) was available when the 350/460 Series was issued in the Summer of 1910.

Perhaps Scot Reader....or anyone else can explain why there are these 2 subsequent cards of Donlin
in the T206 set ?



TED Z collection

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Posted By: T206Collector

...you'll find a better explanation than the one you hinted at in your opening -- he was a star of stage and field in New York. If Derek Jeter stopped playing this year to pursue a successful acting career, I suspect you'd have Topps printing cards of him in 2008 and perhaps even 2009.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Exactly. The cards were issued to market and promote cigarette brands. What better way to do it than with someone who is famous?

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Posted By: Jason L

T206, very good point, though I would think it less likely nowadays than back then, when NY was the center of a much tighter regional universe for both baseball and show business than today's national scene...

Did Donlin perhaps still suit up for spring trainings and stay under someone's contract, even though he elected not to play the seasons? That may explain a continued interest in printing his cards....if the promise of his playing was ever imminent...?

Ted,
I emailed you a day or so ago re: some cards...did you receive it?
thanks,Jason

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Posted By: Mark

He married a famous actress, I believe. Maybe the card of him sitting is symbolic of his "sitting out" the 1910 season.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

He married Mabel Hite, who was a Broadway actress. And, and thru her he became very interested
in the acting profession.

T206Collector probably offers as good a reason, as any, for why ATC continued producing his cards
thru out most of the entire production run of T206's.

He was quite a character....but, must have had a great "hitting eye" since throughout his "on-off" 12
years in BB, he kept coming back and hitting for a .333 to .356 average. Sort of reminds me of the
career of another left-hander....."Lefty" O'Doul.

TED Z

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Posted By: Bob

Donlin, who should be a Hall of Famer, had frequent and violent run-ins with the law. He was the bizarro Christy Mathewson, a handsome player with tons of talent, but one who could have cared less about the young kids or his image. As I recall he left baseball (or was booted out temporarily) several times, so maybe someone thought, "aw, he'll be back soon," and kept printing cards.
I think you can see how popular and well thought of as a great player he and Hal Chase were by the number of cards of each in the 206 set...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

One of Donlin's best performances was in "Stealing Home", for which he got rave reviews. He served 6 months in jail for assaulting an actress.

He was a an old style baseball player in the day... why the game was viewed as a sport of ruffians and gamblers. An interesting fellow.

12 Boston Red Sox cards in T206...

19 Pittsburg Pirates (including Honus)...

22 Philadelphia A's...

28 New York Highlanders...

36 Chicago Cubs...

52 New York Giant cards...


This white border set was not organized for equal team representation... More popular players and teams of the day have more cards. Might be interesting to get the attendance figures for each team, 1907, 08, and 09; and compare the number of cards for each team.

Frank.

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Posted By: Damian Anderson

Great question, and great answers. Love stuff like this. It really puts perspective on the times and history. Just goes to show that vintage cards especially T206 run very deep from a cultural standpoint. It is much more than just baseball history, a testament and standpoint of Americana!! Cheers!!

Damian

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

The Mike Donlin story - sorry I do not know who the author is. I've had this for some time and only added the pictures.

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/jspillman/donlin.htm

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks much for your link on the Mike Donlin story. It is very informative and the pix are great.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Jerry... great link!! Stuff like that brings these little cards alive.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

TBOB's post got me thinking....about the raw similarities between Donlin and O'Doul. Both had intermittent 12
year Major League careers....both started BB as Southpaw pitchers....both played in that great "stage" of NY,
and when you compare their "numbers"....they are very similar.

Are they deserving of HOF status ? Most say their careers'were not long enough. However, everyone agrees
that Shoeless Joe Jackson should be a HOFer, and he played only one more year than Donlin or O'Doul.

...............AB.........Hits.......BA......Runs. ....RBI's.......HR

Donlin......3860......1287.... .333......670......543.........51

O'Doul......3264......1140.... .349......624......542.......113

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I did receive your email. I've been away and i will get back to you soon.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

To follow-up on your observation of how heavily favored the NY Giants player's are in the T206 set.

Here are how the three Series breakdown.....

150.....22 Subjects
350.....16 Subjects
460.....13 Subjects (more than 25 % representation)

Multi-card appearances

Player......cards

McGraw.......4
Ames..........3
Donlin.........3
Doyle..........3
Marquard.....3
Mathewson..3
Myers.........3
Schlei.........3
Seymour......3
Wiltse.........3
Bridwell........2
Crandall.......2
Merkle.........2
Murray.........2
Snodgrass....2

Devlin, Durham, Fletcher, Herzog, Latham, McCormick, O'Hara, Raymond, Tenney, Weimer = 1 card each

From these numbers, I gather that the T206 designers regarded the Giant's as "America's favorite" team
during those years ?
Or, was it just a matter of convenience and hometown favoritism, since this set was produced in NY city ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I noticed you came up with 52 cards of NY Giants.....I have 51, who am I missing ?

I like your comparison of the Giants representation to the other teams. There are 390 Major League
Subjects in the T206 set. Therefore, a normalized average of 24 players per team would be typical,
if there was equal representation.

So, your point is well taken....regarding the significantly higher number of Giants players in the set.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted... I find Bert Sugar's book great for looking up the team associations. From looking at that, Mr. Lipset's Encyclopedia, and Rich Egan's list, it is obvious that for years T206 was collected by team, not alphabetically as in today's Standard Catalog. I have mine sorted by team. I concede that alphabetically is easier at first... I still hope one day collectors return to the team approach.

Here's Devore's little bio, as it currently is, in my little T206 book.

Devore, Josh. New York, NL. Josh started his career at Meridian, Mississippi, of the Cotton States League. Bought by the Giants at the end of 1907 after 2 years at Meridian, he was assigned to Newark for 1908. Josh was a good base runner with great speed. In 1912, during a game against the Boston Braves, Josh batted twice in one inning, hitting a single each time; he then stole second and third both times, setting the record for most steals in an inning, with 4 stolen bases.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for the Devore info......I knew if you said there were 52 Subjects, that somehow I missed one.

I went thru my set listing all the NY Giants and my Devore card has a funny cut to it, where the team
name is obscured.

Also, I tallied the NY Highlanders, while doing the Giants, your 28 Subjects agrees with mine. I thought,
perhaps, that ATC might have "exagerrated" all the NY players; but obviously, they did not with the NY
Highlanders....other than Hal Chase.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

American Tobacco had to focus on the Giants. McGraw was THE baseball man on the planet. First place in 1904 and 1905. Second in 1906. Tied for second in 1908, but only a game behind the Cubs, tied with the Pirates. Third in 1909, second in 1910, then back to first in 1911. Seems that some of the players in the set are there for what they did 3 and 4 years earlier, Beckley, McGinnity, Jimmy Collins, Duffy... and then some are in there for what they were doing in 1910 or so, if they're on a 460 card, such as Zach Wheat.

Again, what I or someone should do is find club attendance records for 1905 through 1910, and compare that to the quantities of cards for the various teams depicted in the white border set. I think I've got that stuff somewhere, in a book. I just hate to start digging through the boxes until it settles in my mind where it would be. It's probably on the internet somewhere, too.

Ted, do you sort you cards completely alphabetical; alphabetical in groups of major leaguers, minor leaguers, and southern leaguers; or by team? Anyone out there still sort by team??

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Posted By: Clint

How much time did it take from concept to issuance on the t206s. Did it take say 3 years to secure players, design cards, manufacture the cards and then issue them or was this done fairly quickly? If it took a while this might be one of the factors in the popularity of Giants players.

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Posted By: Mark L

The Giants led the NL in attendance in 4 out of the 6 years and finished second the other two times. The Cubs finished second in NL attendance four times and first twice during that period. The Bucs finished 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 3rd in NL attendance during those years. During that stretch, AL attendance was strong. The A's sometimes finished above everyone, as in 1907 and 1910 when they outdrew everyone in both leagues. So it ain't a simple response to paid attendance. As I understand it, outside of NY the Giants were looked on as a bunch of rough and someimes dirty players whom fans loved to hate. (Matty excluded). Inside NY, they were, of course, the Yankees of their era.

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Posted By: Paul

Donlin also appears in the Coupon set, using his T206 batting pose, with the designation ".300 batter 7 seasons." I've always assumed this was issued after he retired for good, and the unusual caption reflected the fact that he was not associated with any team. He must have been quite popular for the tobacco company to continue to include his card in the set. I don't think even Cy Young is in the Coupon set, but Donlin is.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Paul... can you post an image of that T213 Donlin? I did not know about that caption, would love to see it. Great info!

Donlin hit over .300 in 10 of his 12 years. He hit .161 in 1914 for the Giants, his last year. 1906 was his 7th season hitting .300. He doesn't play in 1907. In 1908 he hits .334 in 155 games (Giants have that extra playoff game in '08 with the Cubs, ya know... 155 games in a 154 game season), second best in the National League. Not bad for a fellow who sat out a year. Wagner topped the league with .354, Doyle's .308 was 3rd best that year. I think only 5 guys hit .300 or better in the NL in 1908.

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Posted By: Paul

Here's my Donlin.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

FRANK

You asked how I organize my T206 sets..they are in my albums in the order as they were chronologically
issued.
And, within each Series they are in alphabetical order. The format is as follows for the Piedmont set.....

150 Series................153 cards

Southern Lgers...........48 cards

350 Series (Maj Lg)....183 cards

350 Series (Min Lg)......86 cards

460 Series..................48 cards

The Sovereign set follows the same format (of course, no So Lgrs are in it).

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Really great stuff......this really tells us how popular Mike Donlin was with the T-card designers of
that era. And, certainly is as good an explanation to my original question, as I can expect to get.

And, thanks for showing us your T-213 card of Donlin.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The first Donlin card (Hands on Knees) issued in the 150-only Series is definitely tougher than most
T206's. And, another interesting aspect of this card is that, along with several other T206 cards
(such as Lundgren-Cubs), it reinforces the theory that the Piedmont brand "ruled the T206 world".

This Donlin card is found only with Piedmont 150 and Sweet Caporal 150 Facs. 25 & 30 backs; and,
a rarely seen HINDU.
Surveys have shown, that there is a ratio of 10/1 Piedmont backs to Sweet Cap backs. This factor,
next to the Magie and Doyle error cards and the Lundgren (Cubs) card, provides further proof of the
"Piedmont Primacy" theory.



Other than the "Big Six"....Tell us what T206 cards have been really tough for you to find ?

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I offer this idea seriously, although some may doubt it...


What if the Donlin sitting card is a joke? Donlin is in baseball, with his fielding card. He sits out to fool with acting and actresses, and someone at American Litho (reckon the ATC decided on names and poses, American Litho, or someone else?) decides to do a sitting card of Donlin because he's sitting out. How many other sitting cards are there??

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

Other than the "Big Six"....Tell us what T206 cards have been really tough for you to find ?

Cad Coles Southern Leaguer

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Posted By: D

Paul I recently bid on two of the Donlin T213 "7 years .300" card. It seems to sell for a premium, but I havent found any info on why the slogan was printed next to his name, seeing as how its the only card in the set to be printed with it. Leon has one and i asked him, but he doesnt seem to know why either. SGC in its power rankings only rates the card a "1" in difficulty(which may mean nothing, just interesting), and I have seen a few lately for sale. Anyeone have any info on the T213 Donlin?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

GLYN

Breitenstein and Coles have been my toughest cards to find from the Southern League Series.

TED Z

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Posted By: RC

Frank

I think sorting by team makes sense also. I am starting with the Reds and we'll see where it goes from there. It's very interesting to read the info such as what has been found about Donlin and others.

I was told by another poster to check out the background on Larry McLean of the Reds. He was quite a scrapper as well. How common was it for contracts to have sobriety clauses in them at that time?

RC

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted,

Early on in foolin' with the white border set, I thought the 8 Texas League players were the more difficult of the Southern Leaguers. A few collectors over the years have told me that they found that not to be the case. I still wonder... they would be Miller of Dallas; White of Houston; Bastion and Stark of San Antonio; and Slagle, Smith, Strang, and Thebo of Shreveport.

RC,

I know 2 1934 baseball contracts had clauses about alcohol in them. Leo Durocher's, which I have a copy of somewhere, and Bill Walker's, which I have. Branch Rickey typed it in, both he and Walker initialed it. Both signed the contract.... something like this, "If, to the satisfaction of the club, the player has abstained from the use of alcoholic beverages, then he shall be compensated an additional $1000 at the conclusion of the season." That is from memory, but close. I don't doubt other players had such clauses earlier in time.

And RC, you be careful who you let know you're sorting by team... folks will frown at that. But if you sort by team, then you can shuffle them either alphabetically, or better is alphabetically by series. That is the way to see the development of the set, the uniform changes, and the like. It's beautiful.

Frank.

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Posted By: RC

Frank,

As scary and precarious as it may seem to do on this wonderful board, I tend to agree with you.

I've had to deal with much more difficult situations than someone not agreeing with me about how I collect baseball cards!!

I still need to check out your recommended book!

RC

PS - How was Opening Day in Cincy?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st....please forgive me for correcting you (better I, rather than one of those "usual suspects",
that lately look for any excuse to go after us). There are 6 Texas Leaguers and they are Bastian,
M. Miller, Stark, C. Smith, Thebo, and White (Houston).

2nd....I fully agree with you, these Texas Leaguers aren't as tough as some of the other Southern
Leaguers.....and especially Thebo.....in the 26 years I've collected T206's, I have seen more of his
card than most regular T206's.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted,

You're right... Slagle and Strang are listed in Burt Sugar's book, and that is what I looked at. 6 sounds right.

Opening Day in Cincy was great... super conversation up and back with the regular guys. Beautiful weather, it was cold, damp and windy last year. I've been there when it snowed! I think that was in 1986, or so. Got tickets and got right in. 106 box seats, but way down left field. Got an autograph on my scorecard during BP, #47, Scott Eyre. Dunn homered in 1st and 2nd at bats, that was neat. Saw Junior play, that seldom happens on opening day, seems he's usually hurt. Saw Josh Hamilton's 1st big league at bat. But for a diving catch he would have had a hit. Aaron Harang did his usual dominant performance. He's quite a pitcher. The President was NOT there this year, so no waiting in long lines for metal detectors and searching, no bomb dogs around, no snipers out on the roof in center field looking for someone to shoot... so that was good. Pete Rose was there, and mentioned by the announcer going into the top of the 9th, he waived to the crowd... Pete is idolized in Cincy. None of the umpires died, so that was good. Sat beside a pretty hot blonde, but I behaved. Got the slightest bit of sunburn, which I deserved. I'm still grinning over the day, so thanks for asking! Baseball is not a game, not just a season... it is a continuum, wherein the activities from years past, generations past, can be associated with the present. It can be passed on from father to son, grandfather to grandson...

I'm not much of a fan of 26 million dollar shortstops, domes, steroid records, unions, strikes, and all of the crap... but if you block all of that out and just watch the pitcher work the outside of the plate, the runner getting a lead, the relay throw, and going first to third on a single... it's still a pretty enjoyable game.

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Posted By: John

Frank,

Interesting thought but I think its just Mike sitting down nothing really more,there are 2 more sitting poses in T206 as well.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOHN
Other than the 460 Series card of McGraw, I don't see any other "sitting poses" in the T206 set.
Your Herzog is also from the 460 Series and by 1911 when he was with Boston (NL), he also coached
and a couple years later was a Manager.
It is understandable that Pfeister is captured in sitting pose as he was a pitcher (waiting for his turn
at bat). His action card show him pitching.

FRANK
I agree with your observation, it's not only the sitting pose, but also the expression on Donlin's face.
Normally, this 2nd card of Donlin would not have been issued. He was out of BB doing his acting gig....
unless, (as you are alluding to) the T206 designers were trying to convey a message.

Here are two great examples that convince me that the artist's designing these BB cards were trying
to convey a message......
In 1889 Anson was playing at the end of his 22 year career....hence....the SUNSET

And, Mike "King" Kelly had a very "stormy" personality....hence....the STORM CLOUDS



TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Not a good start for the reigning World Champs. You told us about the pretty blonde, Pete Rose,
and your sunburn.....how about your Cardinals ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Aaron

Frank,

What is the title of the book you have been referring to written by Bert Sugar? Just curious, I always thought Bert Sugar was a Boxing historian, didn't realize he had a book on baseball cards.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Burt wrote or edited The Sports Collectors Bible... I think there are 3 editions. The first is in a green cover, second and third are in a white cover. 1975, 1977, and 1979. The 3rd edition is about 570 pages. As I've demonstrated, there are some errors in the books. But the 3rd one is pretty good. It is great for figuring out ACC numbers for stuff, especially the odd stuff. Olbermann wrote just over 2 pages for the beginning of the book.

As for my World Champion (you left that out, Ted) St. Louis Cardinals... they can't win the Central division this year. The Mets have spent too much money and, as a result, have a really good team. I am slightly encouraged because the Cards are in the cellar, 0-3, and the Pirates are alone in first, 3-0. It reminds me of a life long Pirate fan who, about a half dozen years ago, taped the standings to my office door one mid-April, with the Pirates in first highlighted and the Cards in last, highlighted. I smiled and just left it taped there. By mid summer the positions were reversed, and they remained that way to the end of the season.

At least I stay loyal to my team... even if they have more errors than runs 3 games into the season.

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Posted By: leon

There were 4 revisions...the last one being in 1983-84.....Many of our category numbers came from this publication. "N, E123, E125, all WG when referring to game cards, and many others"....The last version was a good try at updating the ACC.....

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

The 3rd edition of SCB had errors in how some sets were assigned ACC numbers. It is a good reference though and contains a lot of sets not in other guides.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Leon...

I'm looking at my little stack of 3 Sports Collecors Bibles in a new way. Thanks to you I now know I need one more, a 4th edition.

They are dated, but still handy books.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I noted it in post (7:07 AM),here's my 1st words...."Not a good start for the reigning World Champs."

Anyhow, my best friend in Florida, John D, is a real avid Cardinals fan (he grew up in St Louis).
He has every Cardinal BB card from "day 1". And, almost all autographs of these Cardinal players.
He's not as pessimistic about the Cardinals chances this year.

As you know, I am a Yankee fan and I've seen some of the greatest World Series contests as a kid
in the late 1940's thru to the '60s. But, one WS that ranks pretty high, in my book, was the 1967 WS
where your Cards won over the Red Sox in 7 thrilling games. Bob Gibson vs Jim Lonborg, what a contest.
It could have gone either way.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Last Summer.....quite a character. He was "holding court" for a small crowd, while signing his books
in front of the 5 & 10 cent store next to the Hall of Fame.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted,

Please accept my apologies for not noticing that you'd duly honored the World Champion St. Louis Cardinals with the "reigning World Champs" comment. I'm so used to people leaving that off that I'd figured you had, too.

I have 2 thoughts about it... First, I recall a Reds fan and good friend of mine who, in the mid-70s, spent the entire summer talking about his "World Champion Cincinnati Reds". A full long hot summer of it was insufferable. Second, After sitting in the stands and seeing Renteria ground out to the pitcher for the final out of the final game of the 2004 World Series (and I have to say that the Sox fans there were wonderful fans, it was a religious experience for them, and made my pain tolerable), I wondered if I'd end up like some Cubs fans, living the rest of my life with no more Worlds Championships. So I started hoping for just one more. And 2006 was it! So I'm content. Another in a few years would be good, but not necessary for me.

The Cards have played 3 games, scored a total of 2 runs, and made a total of 4 errors. That is one fine start. Maybe tonight things change.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

As a NY Yankee fan....I felt your pain, when Renteria ended the the final game of the 2004 WS,
and the Red Sox finally won one. But, then struck me that it was exactly 100 years since John
McGraw and the Giants refused to play Boston in the WS....in 1904....I appreciated the "poetic
justice" in this victory for the Beantowners.

TED Z