OT - Who is the best player that should NOT be in the HOF?

[Archive]

Posted By: markc

There's been a lot of discussion lately about players who should be in the Hall of Fame and players who are in the HOF but should not. I'm curious, though, about who you think are the best players that should NOT be in the Hall of Fame. Who just quite doesn't make the cut? (If they're already in the HOF they're not eligible...that's not the question.)

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

What about Dave Parker- alot of great impact years with both the Pirates and the A's and even a final stand with my milwaukee brewers, I think about 2400 hits high 300 for home runs , good RBI guy but I really don't think any one really thinks that he should be in the hall

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Cummings

New Jersey native Roger "Doc" Cramer.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cramedo01.shtml

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Probably someone like Rafael Palmeiro. Not even because of the Steroid stuff, but because his career marks are the product of longevity and the inflated offensive era in which he played. If you look at his numbers he was never the best 1B at any point, he never lead the league in any of the big offensive categories. He didn't have postseason success. He was an all-star only four times.

The benchmarks of 3000 hits and 500 homeruns make him a lock for the Hall of Fame(in due time, once the steroid stuff blows over, only his numbers will remain). But compared to the otherguys who reached those marks (Mays, Aaron, Murray) he is thoroughly outclassed.

If he gets in I won't be upset, but if he stays out I have no problem with it either.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A tie...

Joe Jackson and Pete Rose.

Both were great players. Neither should ever be in the Hall of Fame.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

Some guys are in the HOF because they hot 500 HRs, but have terrible career batting averages and have struck out wayyyyyyy too much. Also, some players have 3000 hits and are in the HOF even though their career AVG sucks. I think some of them just made it to 3000 hits just because they had so many at bats.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Ken W.

Yeah, Palmeiro kind of snuck up on me. I knew he was a decent player, but couldn't believe when he reached the 3000/500 milestones. I just never had that gutteral feeling of his being in the upper echelon, all time. Kind of the way I feel about Jeff Bagwell, Fred McGriff, and Dale Murphy. As for earlier players, Gil Hodges might also qualify as always-a-bridesmaid.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Would Hal Chase rank up there?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Mattingly gets my vote although I'd love to have him in. He certainly could have been a HOF'er without the back problems, but I can also see why he doesn't get in.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I think Bagwell was an elite player. And you could probably argue that Murphy was for a short period of time too.

As it stands Bagwell to me is much more a HOF guy than Palmeiro.

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

Craig Biggio. Will get 3,000 hits this year. Him and Palmerio will/should be the first two players in history with 3,000 hits that do not get in.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Mike,

Your wrong about Biggio, as far as I'm concerned Biggio will be a first ballot hall-of-famer. A throwback to the old days, a shoo-in.

Bagwell may have some difficulties getting in.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

Peter,

I agree that he will get voted in, I just do not agree that he should, at least on the first ballot. He has only finished in the top 5 in MVP voting two times in his career: 4th in 1997 and 5th in 1998. If you have never even been voted a top 3 player in your league your entire career, should you really be a HOF'er?

The best player not in the Hall = Pete Rose

Others in the running, not mentioned: Dave Parker & Jim Rice

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I agree with P. Chao on this one, Biggio is completely deserving, read any Bill James discussion of him for a more detailed explanation.

I think Mattingly is a good prototype for someone who falls just short.

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry

Riggs Stephenson, Chicago
great batting average lifetime .336
why he is not there and others are in beyond me.........probably less than 5000 at bats, he played long enough but had only 1500 hits or so....

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Biggio is a no brainer. He was one of the best 2B in the game for a long time and did more than just get 3k hits. He could steal, had some pop and played top notch defense. As pointed out, Palmiero's staggering numbers are spectacularily underwhelming. It always bothers me though when people file the complaint that he he did it because of longevity. If it were that easy to pile up numbers due to longevity, then lots of good to very players would be compiling huge career stats. It's not that easy to be an outstanding player for a very very long time. Through most of baseball history, older, more expensive players tend to get cut in forvor of younger, cheaper players, so to be able to hang around for a long time means you are being productive enough to warrant keeping the huge salary around instead of briging up a cheaper, younger player.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

bo jackson

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Dennis,

Bo Jackson had the potential to be one of the best players ever, unfortunately he was less than halfway there when he hurt his hip. He doesn't even qualify for the Hall because he never met the 10 year requirement.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

I too believe he will get in, but what about Alomar, Richardson and Gordon? Some food for thought below:

Biggio has 4 Gold Gloves. Non-HOF'er 2nd basebmen with as many or more = Bobby Grich (4), Brett Boone (4), Bobby Richardson (5), Frank White (8) and Roberto Alomar (10). Others of interest = Keith Hernandez (11), Don Mattingly (9), Jim Kaat (16), Omar Vizquel (11), Dwight Evans (8), Andre Dawson (8).

Biggio has 4 Silver Slugger Awards. Non-HOF'er 2nd basemen with as many = Lou Whitaker (4), Jeff Kent (4), Juilio Franco (4), Roberto Alomar (4). Others of interest = Lance Parrish (6), Barry Larkin (9),

Biggio has 7 All-Star game appearances. Some Non-Hof'ers with as many or more appearances = Dick Allen (7), Roberto Alomar (12), Dave Concepcion (9), Walker Cooper (8), Del Crandall (9), Andre Dawson (8), Dom Dimaggio (7), Bill Freehan (11), Steve Garvey (10), Joe Gordon (9), Gil Hodges (8), Elston Howard (9), Bob Johnson (7), Ken Keltner (7), Harvey Kuenn (8), Barry Larkin (12), Sherm Lollar (7), Fred Lynn (8), Marty Marion (7), Edgar Martinez (7), Frank McCormick (8), Mark McGwire (12), Edward Miller (7), Minnie Minoso (7), Dale Murpy (7), Mike Mussina (7), Tony Oliva (8), Al Oliver (7), Dave Parker (7), Lance Parrish (8), Billy Pierce (7), Tim Raines (7), Jim Rice (8), Bobby Richardson (7), Ron Santo (9), Ted Simmons (8), Lee Smith (7), Reggie Smith (7), Vern Stephens (7), Dave Stieb (7), Darryl Strawberry (8), Joe Torre (9), Alan Trammell (7), James Vernon (7), Rudy York (7)

Career MVP Rankings: People ahead of Biggio not in Hall: Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Jeff Bagwell, Steve Garvey, Albert Belle, George Foster, Andrea Dawson, Dale Murphy, Pedro Guerrero, Don Mattingly, Vern Stephens, Keith Hernandez, Boog Powell, Mark McGwire, George Bell, Roberto Alomar, Frank McCormick, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Matt Williams, Will Clark, Maury Wills, Darryl Strawberry, Cecil Fielder, Larry Walker, Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Joe Gordon and many more.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

If Riggs Stephenson wasn't injured in college(he badly injured his shoulder playing football) maybe he would have a shot. Basically he couldn't throw at all, and that is the primary reason his career was so short, and why he wasn't a full-time player for most of his career.

What you have left is a .336 batting average in a severly inflated offensive era, and no homerun power, along with being a major defensive liability.

Don't forget that Biggio also was an all-star at Catcher and Second Base, a combo which I don't think anyone else can match. Also his skillset is the kind that gets overlooked in that he wasn't a huge power hitter, and didn't put up huge steal total, or hit for really high averages. He just did everything well.

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Finished up with 2,445 hits, a .303 average and four Gold Gloves, but no power for a first baseman.

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

Wally Berger, Indian Bob johnson, Gavvy Cravath, Jacques Fournier, Hal Trosky, Richie Allen, Bobby Bonds, Dwight and Darrel Evans and Albert Belle. A list of pitchers would include Allie Reynolds, Billy Pierce, Ron Guidry, Vida blue, David Cone and Doc Gooden.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Mike, your comparisions are horrible. The only one that can stand on it's own is Silver Slugger. Everyone knows that GGs are a worthless award that little to do with actual fielding and more to do with hitting. Your comparisiion of MVP votes is also flawed. The only 2B on the list is Alomar. To compare the MVP share of 2Bs to OFs and 1Bs is just plain silly.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Mike,

When it comes to Biggio your missing a lot. First, he has a high on base percentage which the stat crowd loves. 2nd, he was better than average as a catcher, 2nd baseman, and outfielder. He would have made a great utility player. 3d, he could steal bases and score runs. Finally, he's played his entire career with Houston, a real team leader, and an icon in Houston.

Biggio probably would be a first round Hall of Famer without 3,000 hits.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

biggio in his prime played 1/2 his games in the astrodome, not a good hitters park at all. whats not to like about biggio??....he scores alot of runs and plays the game hard. agree that biggio is 1st ballot hall of famer.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Howard,

All the guys you named above, they can't all be the best player that should not be in the HOF.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

: ) Sorry, Peter, I got carried away...If i had to choose one it would be Richie Allen. One of the best hitters of his era but he had a short career.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

Howard,

I agree with you that Allen is the best player on your list. But I also believe he should be in the Hall of Fame. His statistics, which are very impressive, were greatly deflated by the era he played in. Imagine what he would have hit for instance, if his career started in 1920. But then again, he'd be playing in the Negro Leagues, so we'd never know. I believe he's one of those guys like Minnie Minoso and Ron Santo who pissed off just enough people to keep him out of Cooperstown. But I believe he's truly worthy ...

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

You're right, Chris. It wouldn't take much to convince me that Allen should be in. I would also point out that he played for five years in some tough hitters parks in LA, St Louis and Chicago (Comiskey) and still put up great numbers.

[Archive]

Posted By: George Dreher

Do you have Minnie Minoso's autograph? Since you're a fan, I have an extra one you can have for free. Let me know.

[Archive]

Posted By: Justin

Bill James has a great write up about Dick Allen in the New Historical Abstract, in which he talks about Allen being a horrible influence on his teams in that he created divisiveness in the clubhouse and undermined everyone he played for. Statistically I agree that Allen has a legit shot at the HOF, but if one looks beyond the numbers and at his attitude, personality, and overall impact I think its very debateable, and is also the reason he isn't in. And the reason his career is so short is that he "retired" for a season in his peak, and was such an unwanted character that teams didn't want him around even if he could play.

I think Jim Rice is very similar in some ways, and deserves a better look.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Justin,

Jim Rice is an unusual case, normally baseball writers don't pay that much attention to the effect of the ballpark on hitting. But they seem to be penalizing Rice for playing in hitter-friendly Fenway Park.

The Veteran's Committee is unlikely to treat him any better because of his surly reputation.

It looks like there's a good chance he'll never get into the Hall.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Allright Jay, I see your warming up--a little of the old venom. It's good to have you back.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

Justin,

I agree with you on Jim Rice. I can't believe there is even any question about him being in the HOF ... I have an older version of James' book, so perhaps he has updated his article on Dick Allen. But I get the sense he is in favor of Allen's induction into the Hall of Fame. He tells a really heartwarming story about Allen promising a home run to a wheelchair-bound young fan, blames Frank Thomas for their famous 1964 fight, and even quotes his primary managers, Gene Mauch and Chuck Tanner, as saying Allen was a good team player who gave them no trouble. Both had many kind things to say. As a fan, all I remember is that Allen could really crush the ball ...

George,

I'll take you up on your generous offer ... you can contact me at: oaklandoaks@sbcglobal.net

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I don't understand why Minnie Minoso isn't in the Hall of Fame, didn't he play in the Negro Leagues. So why hasn't the special committee on Negro League ballplayers nominated him to the Hall of Fame.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

So why hasn't the special committee on Negro League ballplayers nominated him to the Hall of Fame?
peter: he was and he along with Buck O'Neil and others weren't elected.

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

Experts on the forum will correct me if I'm wrong but although Minoso played in the Negro Leagues I don't believe he was a star player until he made in the Majors.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

Peter,

I recall some of the responses I received the last time I went on a Minnie Minoso rant. I was told he didn't play long enough in the Negro Leagues and he didn't play long enough in the majors. But when you put the two together, you get a career longer than many, if not most HOFers. I honestly have never heard a good reason why he isn't in the HOF. I have long argued he's the most deserving player not enshrined. With the possible exception of Mickey Mantle, was there a more exciting American League player in the 1950s? The guy could do it all. Look him up if you don't believe me ... he had speed (led the AL in stolen bases three times), hit for a high average (AL top 10 in 8 out of 11 seasons as a regular), had a great batting eye (.389 lifetime OBA), could throw (139 career assists), and he had a good glove (won Gold Gloves in 3 of the first 4 years they were awarded), hit 189 home runs ... what am I missing? And if you wonder what kind of reception he received when he arrived in the far more segregated American League, consider the following ... he was hit by a staggering 192 pitches (leading the league in 10 out of 11 seasons!). Jackie Robinson, by comparison, was only hit by 72 pitches. He was essentially a slightly better version of Enos Slaughter. And I'm a big fan of Enos ...

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Put Cecil Travis on the list -- a great player who will likely never make the HOF because of WWII.

The best player not in the HOF who eventually will be in, and should be in, is Andre Dawson.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

Eddie Gaedel. Never recorded an out. On Base Percentage 1.000 I'll take this guy on my team anyday.

ps. or is he in the Hall ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

Cecil Travis is another long-overlooked and well-deserving would-be Hall of Famer. They say he didn't play long enough, but he couldn't help it if WWII got in his way. It's always sad when someone like him or Buck O'Neil dies when they're still on the ballot. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to Minnie Minoso ...

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

Steve, how about John paciorek? three for three w/two walks, four runs scored and three RBI all in the only major league game he ever played. And he was only eighteen at the time!

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

If we're talking about short-term wonders, how about a pitcher that never gave up an earned run in his whole career? Wait, he's already in the HOF. His name is Honus Wagner ...