A-Rod has pretty amazing company

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Posted By: Bob

A-Rod is continuing to throw up clinkers in post season play. Who else can you name who was a terrific player who was abysmal in October? I remember Ted Williams had a horrible series in his only World Series and that Ty Cobb stunk the place up when he faced Honus Wagner and the Pirates in their first ever (only?) meeting, but who else has gone belly up when it counted?

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Posted By: peter chao

Well of course, we have poor Bill Buckner. Without his '86 World Series blunder, his career would have placed him on the cusp for getting into the HOF.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Tom D

Trevor Hoffman will be remembered as the closer with awful postseason results.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

If my memory serves me right, I believe recently reading an article
that stated Rogers Hornsby batted a measly .244 in his two world series
appearances. Many consider him to be the greatest hitter ever.
Although I'm not a Yankee fan, this is why I admire Jeter's post season
stat's. The guy's a stud, (pardon my French)......

Tony

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Posted By: Marc S.

Dennis Eckersley was particularly bad in World Series.

Craig Biggio has also been terrible in the postseason.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

"I set records that will never be equaled. In fact, I hope 90% of them don't even get printed."

"In 1962 I was named Minor League Player of the Year. It was my second season in the Bigs."

"I had slumps that lasted into the winter."

"The highlight of my career? In '67 with St. Louis, I walked with the bases loaded to drive in the winning run in an intersquad game in spring training."

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Some Stars who also had bad W.S. batting performances....

Hodges
Hornsby
Mathews
Mays
McCovey
F. Robinson

Yesterday, no one on the Yankees could hit Cleveland's "big ace" and A-Rod walked twice. I think he is due to
break out of his post season jinx this time.

TED Z

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Posted By: howard

Dave Winfield had a couple of awful post-season series although he also had a series winning hit.

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Posted By: Brian

Barry Bonds

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Then who was that Bonds guy on the Giants that had one of the most dominant World Series performances in the history of baseball when they played the Angels? I thought his name was Barry.

-Ryan

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Posted By: quan

arod is a victim of small sample size. from memory he was fine in seattle and his first year with the yankees. i would rather taking 9 choking arods in the playoff than the scrappy/hustling/clutch david ecksteins craig counsels darren erstads of the world (i think 99.9% of baseball fans would agree with me...give or take .1%).

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Posted By: Fred C

Quan,

Interesting question. I'd take the nobodys on my team if I knew it meant the series would go the way I wanted it to. Now if you mean "going into the series with a bunch of A-rods vs a bunch of nobodys" and all things being equal (not knowing what would happen), then I'd take the choking A-rods.

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Posted By: David B

Hey Quan,

I would respectfully have to disagree. I would take the Ecksteins, Counsels, and Brynes' in the playoffs. They have something to prove. Maybe I'm just the .01%. I love the underdog. Go dbacks.

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Posted By: quan

my point is would you want 9 guys like arods or a line-up of scott brosius, eckstein, counsel, erstad, theriot hustler type on your team? being the underdog and have that feel-good story is nice but i want the best chance of winning.

being a dodgers fan my hope is that new york tanks again and they blame everything on arod and we have a chance of signing him when he opts out...but my gut feeling is steinbrenner and co. are too smart to let him get away.

also david b. ur dbacks is an amazing story this year. they are playing way above their head and their pythagorean expectation...the nl west will be good for years to come with all the young stars on every team.

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

David B -
Good to see another D-back fan.
Do you reside in Arizona??

Tony A. in Chandler, Arizona
GO D-BACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: anthony

quan, dont you live something like 30 feet from anaheim? i know of some dodger fans but do you root for the angels too?

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Posted By: peter chao

Quan,

Here's a fairer question how about a line-up of all Jeters vs. a line-up of all ARods, which would you rather have going into a World Series?

Peter C.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Quan,

I guess you can count me in that .1% of baseball fans that would prefer to win. It's funny that all the guys you mention (Eckstein, Counsell, Erstad, Brosius) all have championship rings. In fact, all but Erstad have MULTIPLE rings! In addition, both Eckstein and Brosius have been World Series MVP.

To answer your question, yes, I would much rather have a team full of winners than your team full of losers, or as you put it "A-Rods." Hell, I'd throw Eckstein on the mound and make him throw lefty. Don Larsen only had one perfect game in the World Series. My scrappy pseudo-amidextrous midget might throw back to back to back perfectos! I also might let Counsell pitch, but using 19th century stiff-arm delivery only. Or maybe underhand. Either way, your team of A-Rods has no chance of getting on base, let alone score a run.

As a Yankee fan, I am not at all joking when I say I would gladly trade A-Rod for Brosius straight up. And Brosius has been retired since 2001! I may be an idiot, but I want the best chance of winning. It is not possible to win with Alex Rodriguez.

It was Shakespeare who wrote the most accurate description of A-Rod's career to date: Full of sound and fury, SIGNIFYING NOTHING.

-Ryan

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Posted By: OaklandAsfan

Barry Bonds??? October 5 2007, 6:16 PM


Then who was that Bonds guy on the Giants that had one of the most dominant World Series performances in the history of baseball when they played the Angels? I thought his name was Barry.

-Ryan




That would be the chemically enhanced new and improved Barry Bonds. The real non chemical version stunk up the field in post season play.

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Posted By: Bob

A-Rod had another magnificent game tonight. He just can't seem to hit a sinker or a fastball on the inside corner above the knees. Guess it's hard to make good contact when you swing while clutching your throat with both hands.

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

I feel bad for the poor rich guy. The behemoth of post season jinx perpetuated by New York media weighs heavy on the subconscience. He should just picture the opposing players in their underwear and relax. I took psych 101 as a freshman. Got a B.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

The Yankees have gotten 8 hits in 20 innings, and yet people will still find a way to pin it on A-Rod.

It doesn't matter that the Yankees have three players hitting over .143 thus far. It doesn't matter that Jorge Posada and Hideki Matsui are also hitless thus far, or that super-clutch Derek Jeter is 1 for 8 and has actually been on base one fewer time than A-Rod. It doesn't matter that Chien-Ming Wang couldn't get the ball over the plate, or that the Yankee bullpen (besides Joba and Mo) don't know what that big white thing on the ground in front of the catcher is.

The fact that Jorge Posada and Hideki Matsui have each left 7 men on base doesn't enter into it. Luis Vizcaino's 2 walks in 2/3 of an inning last night don't matter. People have been waiting since April to blame A-Rod for the Yankees' loss, and regardless of whether the Yankees would have been fighting to play .500 ball without him, they're going to blame him. He could have gone 4-for-4 in both games, and if the Yankees lost, it would still be his fault.

When he leaves New York this year and Wilson Betemit plays third base, Yankee fans will be happy. But I will still know that the worst season of Alex Rodriguez' career - last season - was still a better season than the best season of any third baseman in the entire history of the New York Yankees. And I grew up a Nettles fan.

-Al

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I like Joe Torre....but, last night his decision to replace Pettitte with Chamberlain was really a bad decision.
When you are hanging on to a tenuous 1-run lead in such an important game, you bring in your tried and true"
closer.....Rivera should have been in there in the 8th inning.

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Posted By: peter chao

I don't feel sorry for ARod's continuing sorry performance. Let's face it, the guy has everything in the world going for him: bucks, looks, a beautiful wife. It's kind of nice that we find out he's human. However, I don't like the steroid rumors floating around him. That's unfair. Especially, when it's all speculation.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Did I miss something, Peter? I've never heard ARod's name associated with steroids, ever.

Ted, I am not sure I would have brought in Joba, either, but I don't think I would have gone with Rivera that early. Given the sorry state of the Yankee bullpen, I probably would have stayed with Pettite, who had only thrown 93 pitches and had gotten himself out of jams all night. I guess I would have given him one baserunner.

-Al

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Posted By: quan

hey anthony,
went to a few angels games (against the dodgers) but never really been a fan. how can you not love the dodgers with billy ashley, delino deshields, and raul mondesi!

peter,
close call but i'd still take 9 a-rods with his ungodly EQA+ over 9 Jeters with his intangibles and winnerism...although i've got no problem with Jeter as he's a probable hof'er.

ryan,
i can't argue with you as you have the gift of gab and your biting sarcastic humor always cracks me up. However throughout the season players will have stretches of 1-18 or 4-31. You can't just focus on these small sample sizes and judge someone by them. I put Eckstein and Brosius in there knowing they were playoff MVPs to prove the point that if you look at a small number of games anyone can get lucky and look like Babe Ruth. However they're both average players at best in their careers and without guys like Arod they wouldn't even be in the playoffs. Eckstein/Brosius career value/win share above replacement players would suggest they're interchangeable with guys like alex cora and mark bellhorn...

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Rivera's done. How many blown saves will it take before people realize he's not the Rivera of old? He's just a good pitcher now; nothing spectacular.

Instead of being a future starter, they should be grooming Joba for Mo's job.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, what do you think they're doing? Rivera has maybe one more year left; Joba will be the setup man next year and closer the year after -- much the way Rivera started his Yankee career.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Done?

He's getting older, yes, but he's not done.

Rivera blew 4 saves this year. That's fewer than Joe Borowski (8), Francisco Rodgriguez (6), Bobby Jenks (6), Todd Jones (6), Jeremy Accardo (5), Jose Valverde (7), Francisco Cordero (7), Trevor Hoffman (7), Chad Cordero (9), Billy Wagner (5), and David Weathers (6). Of all the closers in the majors with 30 saves or more this year, only a few blew fewer saves.

And while Rivera's 3.15 ERA was the highest of his career, he essentially had 5 or 6 bad outings this season - a few bunched up at the beginning of the year and a few more at the end.

Granted, he had an off-year. But I wouldn't consider him done.

When the Yankees wise up and decide that they shouldn't be grooming Joba to be a starting pitcher, I would imagine you'll see Rivera closing games for one more year, and then moving into a setup role in 2009 with Joba as the closer. Rivera wants to pitch at the new Yankee Stadium, so I don't see him going anywhere.

-Al

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Posted By: Fred C

Rivera, done? Wow, that ERA really stunk. I think Mariano has a few good years left. It'd be interesting to see Joba in the closers role but I think it'd be a little short sighted for the Yanks to do something like that. Let Joba pull a year or two as the main set up guy. He will get hammered and how he handles the beating will determine just how good a closer he will be. Sure Trevor Hoffman's little meltdown at the end of the season was poor timing (and not planned by Trevor) but that doesn't make him a wash out. Trevor's strength is in his ability to bounce back from the occassional poor outing. He'll be back next year, just like Mariano should be for the Yankees. Mariano is tried, true and tested.

Now how about A-rod those first two games? A couple of bad days doesn't make a season. He still has a chance to turn it around. He's still DANGEROUS when he's in the batters box.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Al,

I have to agree that it is absurd for anyone to blame A-Rod for the hole the Yankees find themselves in. Don't get me wrong, he does suck. But this postseason he might not even be in top 10 of those most responsible for the Yankees losing. In fact, even the most ardent A-Rod hater among Yankee fans (certainly I'm a member of that club) cannot deny the fact that the Yankees would not have even sniffed the playoffs this year were it not for Alex Rodriguez. There is no question he was the MVP of the regular season. He was even clutch this year in ways that he has not been in the past. His home runs this year were not all solo shots when the Yankees were winning 8-0 in the 9th inning.

But that doesn't change the fact that he is, indeed, a huge loser that now has a 3-year running postseason batting average in double-digits (.085) with zero RBIs. We're talking about 3 hits in 35 at-bats.

So I will have to respectfully disagree with your statement that Alex Rodriguez has had the greatest year in the history of Yankee thirdbasemen. As of right now, I would put him 27th on the list, behind the following (in chronological order):

1. Joe Dugan - 1923
2. Joe Dugan - 1927
3. Joe Dugan - 1928
4. Joe Sewell - 1932
5. Red Rolfe - 1936
6. Red Rolfe - 1937
7. Red Rolfe - 1938
8. Red Rolfe - 1939
9. Red Rolfe - 1941
10. Billy Johnson - 1943
11. Billy Johnson - 1947
12. Bobby Brown - 1949
13. Billy Johnson - 1950
14. Bobby Brown - 1951
15. Gil McDougald - 1952
16. Gil McDougald - 1953
17. Andy Carey - 1956
18. Andy Carey - 1958
19. Clete Boyer - 1961
20. Clete Boyer - 1962
21. Graig Nettles - 1977
22. Graig Nettles - 1978
23. Wade Boggs - 1996
24. Scott Brosius - 1998
25. Scott Brosius - 1999
26. Scott Brosius - 2000

The good news is that this year is not yet over and A-Rod still has a chance to have the greatest year ever for a Yankee thirdbaseman! But for now, he's #27 on the list.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

I just want to say, "That I believe in A-Rod!" He'll come trough..... Cleveland HAS to win in NY... & that doesn't seem real easy... The Bronx is Hungry! Arod will deliver!!!

& I'm a Mets Fan of 42 years Now...

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Hi Ryan:

Hope all is well.

Hey, was Ted Williams any good?

-Al

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Posted By: Cat (ret.)

The main thing that is wrong with the Yankees are the Indians.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Al,

Ted Williams was great, but he sure choked in the 1946 World Series. Of course, if he wasn't so stubborn he wouldn't have tried to hit directly into the "shift" and just poked a few singles into left field. Ted Williams being Ted Williams, he simply could not do it. I think he would have felt somehow like a coward or less of a man. I'm sure the Cardinals knew this and it played right into their hands.

Do I think less of Ted Williams due to his inability to perform in the clutch the one chance he had to win a championship? Yes. But he was no A-Rod.

I bet if he'd gotten into another World Series, or could have gone back in time and done 1946 all over again, he'd have sprayed a few singles down the third base line.

-Ryan

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It takes more than one bad player to lose.

The Indians won game one 12-3. I'm hoping Yankee fans weren't expecting ARod to bat in 10 runs.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Ryan was, David.

Ryan wanted A-Rod to hit a 12-run homer that could win six World Series.

-Al

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think if you hit a grand slam and round the bases three times before the ball lands, they'll give you 12 runs ... or call you out.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Al,

I guess I was hoping for at least 4 hits in 35 at-bats with at least 1 RBI over three postseasons, but I know those are unrealistic expectations and probably too much pressure to put on a professional baseball player.

Don't worry, when he goes 2 for 5 with a home run in game 3, he'll be crowned King of New York and touted as the greatest clutch performer in sports history by you and the rest of the A-Rod apologists, especially if the Yankees lose. That way, you can all rejoice that it wasn't A-Rod's fault:

A-Rod fan club: "Did you hear about the great year Alex Rodriguez had?"

Ryan: "No, I hadn't heard. Did he help the Yankees win the World Series?"

A-Rod fan club: "No, they were swept by Cleveland in the first round. But it wasn't HIS fault! There were bugs."

Ryan: "You're right. A-Rod really is the greatest living organism in the history of Earth."


-Ryan

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ryan, I'm not sure it's fair to say that ARod has choked in THIS post-season. No doubt he has in the past, but the sample here is too small and he's faced possibly the best two pitchers in the AL thus far. I think that's the point of the "apologists" (at least I hope it is).

I'm not a Yankee fan and NY has destroyed the guy in the press. You're wrong to think that NY has embraced him in any way or apologized for his shortcomings. I'm not sure I can recall a NY athlete in recent times who has been abused as badly by the press and fans despite the fact that he's about to win a second MVP while playing here.

As for his proclivity to choke, he batted .458 in the 9th innings of games this year with like 8 HRs. He nearly singlehandedly brought the Yankees back from the brink many times this year. He was easily the best clutch hitter in baseball this year.

All that being said, at least in NY, until you produce a championship you're nothing here. I think NYers are tougher on their stars than any other city. Do you think the newspapers in Seattle, Texas, etc ever got on him like they do here? There are very few ARod apologists here. Even Yankee fans hate him which, in my opinion, is a disgrace.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your thoughts were mine, too....let Pettitte at least start the 8th and see what developes.
He was amazing in all those innings with Clev. base runners anxious to score.....this is why
in October he (and my old friend David Wells) were amazing.

But, the media reported (don't know how true this was) that he told Torre he was "tired".

The Yankees are in a deep hole now....but, if I recall they came back from a 0-2 deficit in
1978, and more recently an 0-2 deficit with Oakland.

Of course that latter brink of disaster was turned around by Jeter's fantastic play covering
the throw from RF (by the 1st base line) and flipping the ball to homeplate to get the out.
That play was so huge, it apparently de-moralized the A's.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jeff,

I can't go so far as to say A-Rod hasn't choked this postseason. It's just that many Yankees have choked much worse. He did strike out in some key situations, but he hasn't even been up in more than one or two key situations so far. Plus, it honestly looked to me like he faced some particularly nasty pitches that I'm not sure anyone could have hit. Matsui has also been consisently awful in the postseason since that absurd game at Fenway Park that shifted the world off its axis and led to the worst of all possible outcomes, the Red Sox winning the World Series.

A-Rod could strike out 10 more times this series and all of them together would not come close to adding up to Posada's choke with the bases loaded, down by one run, 3-0 count, swinging (and missing) at ball four three times in a row.

All of the Yankee hitters are choking to some degree, many of them worse than A-Rod. This year, at least so far, it actually is not A-Rod's fault that the Yankees are losing. How refreshing!

-Ryan

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

In 1946 the Dodgers and the Cards ended the season in a flat-footed tie (love that cliche). They moved on to a 2 of three playoff situation. To keep his charges sharp, Joe Cronin scheduled the Red Sox to a three game exhibition series against an all star team (including Joe D). In the first game, Ted was hit directly on the elbow by Senator lefty Mickey Haefner. The elbow "swelled up like a hard-boiled egg." Ted was advised by team Doctor to rest, but there was little time to rest with the series coming up fast.
Later on, Ted figured out a way to beat the Boudreau shift by going to a heavier bat causing him to pull the ball less. And when the defense adjusted, he went to a lighter bat.
For the most part, when David Ortiz sees a shift, he continues to pull, hitting into the shift. Teams would love to see hitters like Williams and Ortiz go for singles the other way.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

What bothers me about the whole A-Rod argument it this wacky idea that somehow his postseason performance negates everything else he's done in his career.

Yes, he's had a string of poor postseasons. And it looks like his 2007 postseason, despite it only being a few games long, isn't going to be any good, either.

That said, if you look at his postseason record, it's really only the last three series where he's put up poor numbers. He started slumping at the end of the 2004 series against the Red Sox, and wound up hitting .258 in 31 at bats for that series. In the 2005 postseason against Anaheim, he hit .133, and last year he hit .071.

Prior to that, in four postseason series (I won't count his two at bats in the 1995 postseason), his batting averages were .313, .308, .409, and .421. Not bad at all.

The guy puts up the best numbers of all-time as a shortstop, then moves over to third base and puts up the best numbers of all-time there, too. My suspicion, though, is that he gets buried by the press and by fans because he makes so much money, because of his ill-advised Esquire magazine article, and because he's a bit of a pretty boy.

Shame, though.

-Al

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Posted By: dennis

arod needs to be traded to the cubs so he can choke with the best!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Al and Ryan: I agree with both of your posts.

People want to hate ARod because of the cash and because of his bad PR moves. It's typical schadefreude. Bottom line, he has done things on the ball field that no one before him has ever done.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Fans may expect too much from ARod. However, fans have also said he's paid too much for what a single player can contribute to a team and he's yet to turn down a paycheck.

Players expect pay commensurate or higher than performance, and fans expect performance commensurate with pay. In this equation, the fans are the fairer as they never expect performance higher than pay.

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Posted By: Fred C

Look at A-rod, he got two hits on Sunday and now he's hitting .200 in the series. If he goes 3/5 in the next game he'll be batting .333 and people will start praising him. Now if the Yanks stretch it to game 5 and A-rod cranks a couple HRs while going 3/5 again (and the Yanks win) then we'll hear that he's one of the better post season players because he hit .400 in that series. One thing about BB stats is that a few good days can really make a player look great. Oh yeah, this is A-rod were talking about here. He's like the new Barry Bonds - the player people love to hate. Could you imagine if A-rod was as humble as Jeter and had just half the class of Jeter? He'd be a god. From a stat stand point A-rod is incredible. He's the guy everyone wants on their roto-league team.

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Posted By: peter chao

With Wang on the mound today, the Yankees have a pretty good shot at going to a game 5. Arod will have his chance to lose the choker label. He's also pretty young so he may have many chances in the future also.

Peter C.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

David Eckstein, Pat Borders, Rick Dempsy, Steve Yeager, Bucky Dent, Gene Tenace, Ralph Terry, Lew Burdette, Don Larsen.

When you look back and see the non-stars who won World Series MVPs, you realize the World Series is a short duration and anyone can do well and anyone can do poorly during a short duration. The Toronto Blue Jays had two World Series MVPs in consecutive years, Paul Molitor and Pat Borders. Tell me that combination doesn't have something more to with than player ability. Paul Molitor was a great player, 3000 hit club, Hall of Famer. And Pat Borders?