I am not a PSA basher...but?

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Posted By: peter ullman

With all the talks lately about the psa 8 honus and such...I couldn't help but be kinda pissed off when I just saw this e106 doyle that I sold on the bst thread in the past year. I sent this card to scg and it came back trimmed...I sold it under full disclosure and now it's in a psa holder as the highest graded so far. WTF???? Me thinks the hobby is in trouble.

pete ullman

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Posted By: barrysloate

And you have every right to be upset.

But there is a bigger question: who got it right, and who got it wrong? The only thing we can say with absolute certainty is one of them got it wrong...but which one?

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Posted By: Dave

With all due respect...why is it about bashing PSA again? What makes everyone on here so certain (everytime) that PSA got it wrong, but SGC got it right? SGC deemed the card trimmed....for all anyone knows...maybe THEY got it wrong...

Dave

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Posted By: Joe D.

It is quite possible that PSA got it right, and maybe SGC was being cautious.

This is a great example of why it is important that there is more than one respected authority selling their 'opinion' in the form of a slab.

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Posted By: peter ullman

dave...the card is pretty obviously trimmed...to me. I've compared it to other...unaltered e106's I have and it's dramatically smaller...lengthwise and widthwise...as was the donovan I sold which probably now resides in a psa 5 holder and is the finest graded to date. I'm not a fighter...I don't argue with people for fun...PSA has quality control issues...more issues than some other grading co's...and it is and will continue to be a thorn in the side of this wonderful hobby ...that's all.

pete ullman

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Posted By: Dave

Let me ask this...if it was pretty obviously trimmed to you, why did you send it to SGC in the first place??

Not trying to sound like a smartass..just trying to understand...

Dave

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Posted By: mark

I sold this card yesterday on B/S/T. Peter says that SGC deemed it trimmed. PSA has 2 people look at cards before it is slabbed. Both say it is NOT trimmed. If you did sell this card to an undisclosed person then that person knowingly sold me a trimmed card without telling me.

I checked it out before i sent it in, it does not seem trimmed to me.

Dave you are correct, maybe SGC got it wrong and PSA got it correct.

Edited for countless spelling errors, forgive me its early.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I'm the biggest SGC supporter going, but you can't just measure a pre-war card to tell if it's trimmed. You should pick up a copy of SGC Collector Magazine this month -- it has a number of tricks to determine if a pre-war card is trimmed. Just because SGC says it is trimmed, obviously, does not mean it is. At some point, you must have had your doubts because you submitted it to SGC for grading. Cards too close to call are best sold, if at all, on ebay, with a full disclosure of SGC's evaluation, but your own opinion that you can't tell and that it might be worth a regrade.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

That Doyle card, 2nd row, 2nd from right, is trimmed. All around. No need in sending it to a grading company to ascertain that. Of course there are some folks who would think that card is fine if it were in a graded holder... Some folks buy the slab, some the card, some try to do both.

The lesson, if you're selling a card that might have some value, send it off to get it graded. And send it somewhere else if you're not satisfied. I'd feel that is wrong if it were mine, 'cause I'd know it's trimmed just by looking at it.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I'm not looking to cause big trouble here. I sold the card on the bst thread months ago...I can't remember to whom...but I can probably find a record of the sale somewhere...and when I sold it I included the rejection label from scg. If you have any other e106's...that aren't altered...compare it to the card you just sold and I think the variance in size will prove to be outside of accepted tolerances. Doesn't the rt side of the card look trimmed to anyone? Dave...I didn't think/know they were trimmed when I sent them off...they were the only 2 e106's I had at the time and they were purchased from a major catalog co 10-15 years ago so I assumed they were ok. After receiving the rejection...I compared them to other e106's...and it became apparent they were trimmed.

pete ullman

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Posted By: mark

the guy who bought it from me and offered money back and he said no, he is happy with the card and will keep it.

As far as i'm concerned---case closed. (i Hope, but doubt it)

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Posted By: peter ullman

mark...I didn't mean to cause you any trouble...that was a noble gesture and you're definitely one of the good guys.

Bless you frank!!

pete ullman

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Posted By: mark

i have bought many cards from you (not this one ) and you are a great seller. I will continue to buy from you. This debate has gone on for many years and i think it will continue.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I am 90% lurker here...10% vocal...I read this board dozens of times/day...I have a problem like a lot of you. If some of you want to live in denial regarding PSA's competencies...to each their own. I live in denial of some things too. All of PSA's mistakes are learning exercises for some of us who choose to have an open mind and want to learn.

pete in mn

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Posted By: James Feagin

Since so many E106 are hand-cut, SGC and PSA probably just have different policies.

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Posted By: steve

OK, I have various reasons both PSA and SGC upset me. PSA crossover is a joke (especiaslly toward GAI). And get this - just bought a Mordecai Brown portrait in SGC 60. Me and PSA would have only given it a "4". Too much corner wear with a corner wrinkle on back bottom corner. If it is a EX, very very low end - not happy with SGC's grading on this one. Oh, well.

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Posted By: peter ullman

james...if that's true...I'll feel a little better. I have an e106 collins...my last one and it...the cut...looks machine cut...like most caramels...w/rounded corners.

pete

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Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

I recently submitted a 63T Koufax to PSA that was returned as trimmed. Since I picked it up in a childhood collection I felt very confident it was not and submitted it to SGC where it was graded. I know a local collector who submitted some T206's to PSA that were returned short and subsequently graded by SGC. Because of the history of both of these items I am literally 99.99% confident that SGC got them right. But at the same time it just shows this kind of thing goes both ways.

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Posted By: mark

You could have 100 experts grade a card and get 100 opinions. PSA graded my card and gave it a 4. I am sure that they measured it and if they had a problem with the size then looking at the edges is the next step. When they looked at the edges they must have felt confident to say it was NOT trimmed.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I agree with you guys...ask 100 opinions...you'll get 100 diff ones...but...when so much $$$$ is at stake with some cards...there needs to be more continuity w/grading. I'm done beating a dead horse. I hope y'll enjoy the snow...I am!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

"With all due respect...why is it about bashing PSA again? What makes everyone on here so certain (everytime) that PSA got it wrong, but SGC got it right? SGC deemed the card trimmed....for all anyone knows...maybe THEY got it wrong..."


My answer would be experience in dealing with these 2 companies. I feel PSA has done a poor job of catching restorations especially during the Joe Orlando / Reza Tabatabani era.

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Posted By: Kyle

Yeah, but Joe doesn't grade the cards and I'm sure he doesn't hire the graders. Both companies have their issues, both companies have their benefits. I've used both and have no problems with either of them.

-Kyle-

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Posted By: Zach Rice

I have also been told that E106s were cut from strips. This is coming for someone who has been in the hobby for ages and has in fact seen a strip of them. This would mean that all E106s were, at one time, hand-cut.

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Posted By: mark

That would mean that SGC does grade trimmed cards (<:

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Posted By: mark

I think the light blue background going off the black line at the left fools the eye in my PSA 4. The sides of SGC card look just like the PSA 4...


SGC card in auction...







My card sold yesterday....

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Posted By: BcD

made a mint in my red cross Chase with trophy alleged to be "trimmed" by psa
sgc graded a 60 or 70 and Bob sold!

BcD

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I Luv this thread.
It reminds me of the good Ol' daze.
The only difference is:
We're debating ova who's a betta, and knowledgeable slabba?

In the old daze it was:
How can you call that a NR-NR- NR BU?

Now for a few thoughts from our forum.
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"With all due respect...why is it about bashing PSA again? What makes everyone on here so certain (every time) that PSA got it wrong, but SGC got it right? SGC deemed the card trimmed....for all anyone knows...maybe THEY got it wrong..."
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"It is quite possible that PSA got it right, and maybe SGC was being cautious.

This is a great example of why it is important that there is more than one respected authority selling their 'opinion' in the form of a slab."
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"Yes, you are correct... March 1 2007, 10:48 AM


You could have 100 experts grade a card and get 100 opinions. PSA graded my card and gave it a 4. I am sure that they measured it and if they had a problem with the size then looking at the edges is the next step. When they looked at the edges they must have felt confident to say it was NOT trimmed."
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Re: I am not a PSA basher...but? March 1 2007, 10:52 AM


"I agree with you guys...ask 100 opinions...you'll get 100 diff ones...but...when so much $$$$ is at stake with some cards...there needs to be more continuity w/grading. I'm done beating a dead horse."
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It sounds like the start of a clamoring for a new, or betta third party arbitrator ... by the investors - to the investors and for the investors.

An un bias pillar of integrity, deeply rooted in the concrete sturdiness of truth and the pursuit of the un profit world of monetary cleanliness.

Something, or some one like the ..... UN ... maybe?

Nope, the hobby hasn't changed much, only the names and mindset.

There are eight million stories in our Naked City, and this has been one of them.

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Posted By: George Dreher

I do a lot of business with PSA, so I was shocked when reading a recent auction description on eBay that said The Better Business Bureau just gave them the lowest possible rating of "F"
Doubting that was true, I went to the BBB website and sure enough they got an F. BBB said that a lot of people have been sending in cards and receiving back different cards than they sent in (lower quality). That kind of scares me.

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Posted By: Dave

you know that rumor was told to me back in the 1997 by one of the biggest coin and stamp dealers in Ohio. there was a group of us at a show talking about price guides and grading, and he mentioned that he knew of several collectors that thought they had received different cards back than the ones they submitted. he then went on to tell elaborate that the grading company was keeping the choicest cards they could find for themselves as investment material. I also remeber a card shop owner telling pretty much the same story in 2000.
So, that rumor has been floating around for awhile. The BBB rating is actually quite disturbing to find out about. I will not be renewing my yearly membership to PSA anyway after discovering a multitiude of problems I think exist within the company. Inconsistent grading is only one of them. This BBB rating is now another on my list. I did not know the whole history of the honus Wagner card that sold for millions, but after reading the tidbits about what PSA did just to grade the card, and then reading about how it is a trimmed card and was graded anyway, make me queasy. I personally don't want to support a company that may have used a fraudulently graded card to promote their business. If the book that is due to be published gets any kind of publicity at all I think PSA will be hurt by it. I am actually eager to see what happens after collectors and "investors" read or hear about the whole story.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The nice part about a tell all book is that we can all become tabloid worthy train wreck collectors...

the story about the guy that sunk $1M into HIGH graded cards only to find he can't get 10 cents on the dollar for the cards...

the story about the PSA8 Wagner that is really only deserving of an AUTH label.... the buyer of the card sues everyone possible and gets crap because PSA filed for chapter 11, the previous sellers are broke...

the story about all those poor collectors that believed more in the stupid label than their own instincts and now are sitting on card board pictures of a lot of dead guys that are worth a lot less than they paid for the cards...

the stories about all of the old time collectors saying "I told you so..."

OK, maybe it's not that bad....

I had to add to this thread because anything that says something about PSA Sucks or PSA Bashing always gets my attention ... PSA SUCKS - there, I said it...

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Posted By: Cy

Dave,

It might be a good idea to scan each card that you send to PSA/SGC. I don't send a lot of cards in to be graded, but if I was sending out a large dollar amount, I would scan the cards AND, have my friend, who is the Postal worker, watch me put in each card that I have listed on a sheet of paper, then seal up the box.

This may be over-kill but it may help in some circumstances. Plus it helps that my Post Office is a small-town Post Office and there usually aren't a lot of people waiting in line, so I could do this.

Take care.

Cy

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

But It's only fair to admit that Slab Inc does a great job with corners and sides, ... most of the times.

I'm curious.
What does the BBB have to say about SGC and the others in Slab Inc???

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I have sent in several thousand cards to PSA over the last 6 years. Each one is scanned prior to sending. It's not that I fear a switch, it's just that I am concerned about PSA accidentally damaging my cards.

To date, I have never had a single card switched. And that includes a number of high grade, high dollar cards.

Might not an unhappy customer, disappointed that his "mint" raw beauty turns out to be a PSA 5 because of a surface wrinkle on the back, file a claim against them?

Frank

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Posted By: Scot Reader

I think the BBB rating has to be taken with a grain of salt. Few people feel sufficiently upset to report bad service at the local IHOP. But when your '33 Goudey Ruth that you thought was worth $10,000 comes back with evidence of trimming from PSA, or with a wrinkle that you thought wasn't there when you sent the card in--woooooooooooooooooooooooooah, look out! Of course PSA makes mistakes and of course they occasionally damage cards inadvertently, but the reason they have an "F" from BBB is that there are big $$$ at stake. They are bound to ruffle more than a few feathers given the nature of their business. I can say that I have submitted over 250 vintage cards to PSA and while there has been an occasional mistake, overall I think they have done a pretty good job.

Edited to add that the one time I requested that PSA buy-back a card from me because of what I thought was an egregious error, Joe Orlando handled the matter personally and I got the refund.

Edited further to add that I collect and own both PSA and SGC graded cards.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Judge,

Whats wrong with your story is that high grade vintage cards have been the fastest appreciating part of the hobby over the past ten years and continue to be so and those "old time collectors" who fought the trend and laughed at graded cards have completely missed it.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Without a doubt, you are correct about high grade cards being the fastest appreciating portion of the hobby. I wouldn't disagree with that statement at all. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. The unfortunate part is that it has also (not proportionally) led to the increase in the price of vintage cards. Some people will say it was inevitable but I firmly believe that the valuation on lower grade material also followed the high grade material (and it really shouldn't have). Then again, there aren't many high grade examples of a lot of different cards so it led to the "I have the highest known graded example of such and such a card..."

What I wrote before wasn't meant to stir the emotions of high grade collectors. It was just the rabmlings of a collector that has seen this hobby escape its roots of people that collected for pure joy and not for the competition of having the BEST of the best. People that have the resources to collect the high grade niche are fortunate and I think I could see how easy it could be fall into this categorey if given the resources. I bet that anyone on this board that has dreamed about winning a HUGE lottery has thought that they would buy just about any and every card they wanted with little regard as to cost. Well, there are some of us cheapskates that would still fight for that last dollar of value, regardless of if we were filthy rich or not.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Good points Judge--I agree.

I love the hobby and the cards and the players but I am into the competitive aspect of it big time as well. With me its numbers of sets finished in psa 8 or better not having the best set--although once in awhile I find myself fighting for the best set too.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Let's see the Wagner was bought by Gretzky in the late 80's for over $500,000 in 2007 the same card is sold for just over 2 million about 5 times. You mean to tell me that the rest of the rest levels did not preform to this same level if not higher, I bet you could buy a lowgrade Pr/Fr for around $5 in the late 80's and know you can get $25 for one. I believe it is all proportional it all comes down to the supply and demand and what people can afford and the level of card they are ssatisfied with.

Lee

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I always appreciate someone that's straightforward and honest to themselves first. ... I applaud you.

I do have a question?
You wrote:
"and those "old time collectors" who fought the trend and laughed at graded cards have completely missed it."
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Now Jim, I don't know if you were around to perceive that, but I was.

1. -"fought the trend" ... Fight what trend? ... we knew how to grade our own cards. .. we didn't need them.
Besides, aren't you having the same grading questions with whatever third party?

2. -"completely missed it" ... Missed what? .. throughout my entire collecting experience, I have maintained only one mindset.
My hobby is for fun, and the enjoyment of filling an empty slot of the set that I'm collecting.
It was my sublimation from the world, the job, and the stock market.
Because of that, ... I didn't miss out, I made out.


First of all, when I re-entered the hobby in 1982, and I say re-entered because I flipped my first cards as a kid in 1940-41, and also was into numismatics ..... grading cards as a collector was something that we had to learn and do.
I done it for years in coins before the graders made the scene.
What grading did was create a numismatic investment game, of what use to be my hobby.
Others like myself, swung over to the cardboard hobby, so when the graders came over we just continued grading our own cards.
I refused to go along with the investment mindset.
To each his own, and my choice works for me.

Jim, again thank you for your candor, and honesty.

And as for Judge Dred (Fred)
You can consider me your Amen's Corner. (you nailed it.)

Joe P.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joe,

Everyone collects for somewhat different reasons and I respect the reasons for why you collect.

To clarify--

1)"Fought the trend" means fought the trend toward graded cards. Noone can dispute that there has been a huge shift to graded cards the past 10 years. While you may have known how how to grade your own cards --many did not. I bought a fair number of raw cards from reputable dealers that turned out to be altered. When I would show them to certain leading dealers they could not believe they were altered so I sent them in again. Others had my experience. Thus the advent of grading was able to allow me to enjoy the hobby again as I could buy cards with confidence they were not altered.

2)"Completely missed it" refers mainly to the huge run up in prices in graded cards. I assume most although not everyone likes to make money even though it is a hobby. Secondarily ""completely missed it" means they never thought that graded cards would take off like they have--sort of the Mr. Mint mentality who fought graded cards every step of the way until almost the entire high grade portion of the hobby was high grade.

Good luck with your collection.

Jim

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Posted By: Anonymous

No offense to Scot, but PSA got a horrible rating not because of $$$, but because a certain number of customers complained about the company. I find it hard to swallow that a majority of the complaints came from people who were financially disappointed in the results PSA gave them on a card grade. Believe it or not, I utalize PSA more for the encapsualtion of the cards than I do for the actual grade the card is given. Matter of fact I suggested to them years ago that they should clearly offer that service alone and apart from grading for people like me who don't care what number a card is given (authentication). I had an interesting discussion yesterday with some senior collectors who have been in the hobby since the 40's and 50's. They agrred to a man that card grading has ruined the hobbyist aspect of card collecting for many people old and young. It also has contributed in the false perception that baseball cards are like gold bullion, and they aren't. they have intrinsic value, which basically means that PSA 8 gem you may want to sell for thousands is really only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at that time.
I admire those of you who buy PSA high graded cards...they certainly look nice in their holders. I just have no confidence in a company whose card graders can't consistently grade cards rom the same era. Sometimes, wonder how many of the graders at PSA even have as much collecting experience as I have. If I'm not mistaken a person can request additional and more detailed information from the BBB concerning PSA and the rating they received. I know my brother and both filed complaints against them in 2006.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

NOTHING has intrinsic value. Gold doesn't. Everything is a function of a willing buyer and a willing seller.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I was about to go to bed.

"1)"Fought the trend" means fought the trend toward graded cards."
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Jim, where do you get this "Fought the trend" stuff from?
What fight?
Unlike today, during that period there were more collectors that knew how to grade their own cards.
Why should they spend time at a slab table when they can get a raw one for less? .. that sounds more like economy, than fighting the trend.
If you handle enough cards, you can tell trims.
It was an opinion.
An opinion just like most of the posters on this board would walk past a table loaded with the shiny stuff. ... I wouldn't call fighting the trend either.
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"Thus the advent of grading was able to allow me to enjoy the hobby again as I could buy cards with confidence they were not altered."
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Please permit me to guide you to the top of this thread, and introduce you to the title of the thread.
If you wish to see others, I will dig up some from the archives.
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"2)"Completely missed it" refers mainly to the huge run up in prices in graded cards. I assume most although not everyone likes to make money even though it is a hobby."
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A hobby and a portfolio ... Two totally different animals.
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"Secondarily ""completely missed it" means they never thought that graded cards would take off like they have"
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Jim, to an investor, this is going to be unbelievable and incredible.

We Never Gave That a Thought.

Here's where we differ.
The hopelessly insane mindset of a collector, is totally different than the money angle investor in denial.

Two different animals.

The sicko's are into the joy of filling the empty slots.
While the investors are more into filling the portfolio.
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"sort of the Mr. Mint mentality who fought graded cards every step of the way until almost the entire high grade portion of the hobby was high grade."
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Jimbo, I'm glad you brought up Alan.
There was a time when as a collector I went to more shows, all over the US, than Alan set up as a dealer.
Then he started doing all the big shows in the country.
Before I go any further, let me say that I worked for an airline and that made it possible to fly out to the coast, and catch two 700 to 1000 table shows at LA & SFO during a weekend.
I got to know many good dealers all over the US.
Alan knew that I was from NYC, because he had seen me at many shows there, but he was PO'd at me, because I never bought any cards from him ... anywhere.
Why should I, he wasn't very likeable, and I could always get it cheaper some where else.

You're right, he wasn't into slabs for quite awhile, but you have to remember, Alan was a business man - a Huckster of the third kind.
Any one that was around will tell you.
Alan may not have been liked, but it was his community theatre that helped put this hobby on the map, and in reality set the stage for the slabbers to jump over to the cardboard business from their numismatic hunting grounds.
Alan Mr Mint Rosen, is a business man, and the business side of him, told him it's time to join the slabbers.

Do I have to tell you what happened next?
I'm glad you asked.

He was one of the dealers that I did not talk to at the Texas national in 1990 about the alterations being done with high end T206's.

Jimbo, does the Rosen/Keith O/SGC 2001 Fiasco ring a bell?

Good Luck, but most of all, have fun and enjoy your collection.

Joe P.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Thanks for the interesting historical/experiential perspective.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joe,

My opinions on a couple of things you said.

1)I know hundreds of graded card collectors(literally) and I do not know one that was or is a coin collector.

2)Of these hundreds, I don't know anyone who thinks of it primarily as a portfolio. Aware of the investment value sure but portfolio?

3)I do not believe that collectors in the hobby were more knowledgeable about grading their own cards in the 1980s. Alterations were less widespread then. The demand for grading came in the early 1990s when because of the increased alteration of cards that collectors lost faith in the hobby. It was only after the advent of third party grading(PSA) that collectors(at least high end collectors) at faith enough that the cards were not being altered that they began buying again.

4)Fought the trend has nothing to do with shiny stuff--it refers to the many dealers and collectors who ridiculed third party grading until eventually it took over the high end of the hobby.

Good luck to you as well--you sound like you enjoy the hobby. Trust me--people who collect graded cards love it just as much as collectors--not as part of a so-called "portfolio".

Jim

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Posted By: George Dreher

I am a graded card collector and also a coin collector. Been collecting coins for 40 years.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Thank God you stepped up and stated that you were also a coin collector.
True, this almost sounds like an AA meeting, but for a short while after Jim's comment about card collectors and coin collectors, I was beginning to experience withdrawal pains.

Jeez, he's known hundreds of card collectors, and not one of them a coin collector?

George, you and I know that there's got to be more coin/card collectors out there.

Now I know that you never intended to go beyond your declaration of being a card/coin junkie, but one us should tell him.

Who's gonna break it to Jim, that besides some coin collectors, coin dealers also jumped over to the relaxed world of baseball cards? ... and Alan was one of them.

Why is it that I feel that Jimbo is a slightly Latter Day Collector? ...he doesn't seem to connect with that period of time that I'm referring to. .. It almost sounds like it's mostly hearsay.

George, my fellow C/C collector member, have a great day, and continue the hunt.

You to Jimbo.

"There are 8 million stories in our Naked City, and this has been one of them."

Oops I forgot, maybe 1 per cent of this forum may know or remember where the above comes from.

Joe P.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, let us all harken back to the good old days when we'd see full page ads of Al Rosen with his "Just Say NO To Graded Cards" T-shirts.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That's Alan alright.

He was a business man, fighting his competition.

A Huckster.

A carnival Barker.

An old fashion NYC store Puller.

He didn't care whether you liked him or not, he marketed his product by getting your attention.

Used the poor mans Madison Ave, and made some money with it.

I wasn't crazy about the guy, but he was fun to watch.

Paul, continue to enjoy the hunt.

JoeP.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sorry Joe--have collected cards since the late 1950s and last 20 years quite actively. I don't know the gentleman who collected coins but there must be a few.

I connect pretty well--just have had completely different experiences than you--watching quality ungraded lots go with no bids and getting calls from auction houses the morning after asking me to put in bids on certain lots(pre-war included) that had no bids. That is what it was like pre-grading. But PSA came--true collectors bcame back into the hobby in large numbers and the hobby took off--do not recall that anybody was a coin guy though--at least among the many people I know.

Paul--I do remember Alan Rosen's tee shirts and his SCD auction advertisements "just say no to graded cards" until the wave overtook him.

Enjoy the hobby.

Jim