1959 Ted Williams Fleer Cards

[Jayworld]

Does anyone collect this set? I am thinking about starting this one, as the Ted Williams cards from this set seem pretty affordable. Anyone have any tips or would like to show cards from their collection?

Thanks.

[ALR-bishop]

I have the set and can post some scans later. The key card, Ted Signs, has been counterfeited, and I can post a scan of it side by side with the real one this afternoon

[Paul S]

I bought it complete in the sixties, still raw (only set I've ever bought complete). Like Al, I'll post anything you want to see.

[rsdill2]

Neat set...and not too difficult to complete. As has been said, only card that will set you back any significant amount is #68. Here's my set:

[ALR-bishop]

Can you pick out the fake..

[Jay Wolt]

Al, the bottom one

[ALR-bishop]

You are a ringer Jay so you get no vote . But you are right as usual

[Paul S]

The brown background on Ted Signs is kind of the first thing I came to notice. Not that I make a habit of searching these out. And although I think the card is readily available, IMO I think it is more higher priced than warrants, but that's the going rate. However, Smash Return prices are going up due to recently renewed increased interest in synchronized swimming.

[the 'stache]

May I ask what makes the "Ted Signs" card more valuable than the others? Scarcity, or something else?

[rsdill2]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

May I ask what makes the "Ted Signs" card more valuable than the others? Scarcity, or something else?

Bucky Harris, the BoSox executive in the picture with the splendid splinter had an exclusive contract with Topps. Once Topps got wind of the card being sold, they threatened Fleer with a lawsuit so Fleer pulled it from distribution...at least that's how I understand it.

[the 'stache]

That makes sense, Robert. Thank you!

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by rsdill2

Bucky Harris, the BoSox executive in the picture with the splendid splinter had an exclusive contract with Topps. Once Topps got wind of the card being sold, they threatened Fleer with a lawsuit so Fleer pulled it from distribution...at least that's how I understand it.

I have no legitimate reason to doubt that, but I had always heard that Williams had not actually signed a contract at that point. I would wonder why Harris would even have a contract with Topps. What card company, not that there was much competition, would even want a contract with the Harris likeness? And if Harris had did indeed have some sort of BoSox contract with Topps, why wouldn't he have tried to pull the whole Fleer set, with all those Boston insignias on Williams' jerseys?

[ALR-bishop]

Paul---before he was a GM he was an active player and a manger

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by rsdill2

Bucky Harris, the BoSox executive in the picture with the splendid splinter had an exclusive contract with Topps. Once Topps got wind of the card being sold, they threatened Fleer with a lawsuit so Fleer pulled it from distribution...at least that's how I understand it.

That doesn't make sense. Why would Harris have an "exclusive" contract with Topps? Harris was never on a Topps card and in fact the last card he appeared on was the '53 Bowman B/W issue, six years prior. I think it's more likely Teddy was still under contract to Topps, since he appeared on two cards in the prior year '58T set and was still an active player.

[darkhorse9]

I have nothing to base this theory on, but isn't it possible that the problem wasn't with the subjects on card #68 but the photograph? Photograph copyrights are held by the photographer. That looks like it may have been an AP photo or some other press conference photo. Maybe Fleer never got clearance to use the picture and that was the problem. Or maybe Harris owned the photo and wanted compensation for it.

[ALR-bishop]

Oddly, he does appear on a Topps card, but in the 1953 Reprint set from 1991. Also Ted's contract status would not explain why card 68, as opposed to all the other cards in the set is shorted.

Topps contracts ( and Bowman's) were not exclusive of the rights to a players likeness. The contracts granted exclusive rights to market such likenesses with confections ( gum or candy)...which resulted in alternate packaging by Fleer with a cookie in 63 and Leaf with a marble in 1960. The contracts were often, or at least sometimes for indefinite periods. As has been pointed out, Harris appeared on a Bowman card and when Topps bought out Bowman, the purchase included the Bowman contracts

[Exhibitman]

I've never had much interest in the set but the Ted's All Star Record card is a classic image I'd not mind adding to my collection.

[Jayworld]

Thanks for all the great posts and information. Very helpful! I always wondered, too, why the #68 was a short print. Thank you for the discussion.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Paul---before he was a GM he was an active player and a manger

Al, I get that. But by the time the set came out that phase for Harris had been a long time gone. If Harris wanted money, wouldn't it have been easier for Fleer to just give him a few hundred? Also, as far as Harris being a "manger", maybe Harris thought he was the Second Coming (said in jest).

Paul

[ALR-bishop]

Paul-- your guess is as good as mine. In the early years Topps signed numerous managers and even coaches to card contracts. There are 25 of them in the 54 set. Someone pointed out Bucky appeared on a Bowman card in the early 50s and so he must have been under contract with them. When Topps bought out Bowman pre 1959, they acquired all of Bowman's assets, including the player contracts. But, I am just speculating. No first hand knowledge

[ALR-bishop]

Paul-- your guess is as good as mine. In the early years Topps signed numerous managers and even coaches to card contracts. There are 25 of them in the 54 set. Someone pointed out Bucky appeared on a Bowman card in the early 50s and so he must have been under contract with them. When Topps bought out Bowman pre 1959, they acquired all of Bowman's assets, including the player contracts. But, I am just speculating. No first hand knowledge

[tedzan]

Hey guys

Having seen Ted Williams play (1947 - 1959), I was an avid fan of his. I acquired this set (minus #68) for $35 in gem mint condition in 1982.
That was the going price for it in the early 1980's. Then I purchased an ExMt #68 for only $75.

In 1984, I met Ted and had a very interesting conversation with him "talkin baseball", and baseball cards. The following is straight from Ted's
mouth......

"In late 1958, the FLEER Gum Company contacted my agent to do a series of BB cards depicting my life. FLEER offered me $500 for the rights.
Sy Berger (TOPPS Executive) counter-offered $1000 to retain the exclusive rights to me (Ted). Well, (as Ted chuckles), this started a bidding
war between TOPPS and FLEER. When FLEER raised the stakes to $5000, Sy Berger gave in to FLEER.....and, the rest is history."

Then, Ted added (as he smiled)...."$5000 was a lot of money back then for just having your pictures on a series of BB cards."

I responded....."Sure was, 5000 was my Dad's annual salary."


In my book, Ted was not only a tremendous ballplayer, but also a tremendous person. Willing to give of his time to talk with you.

Oh, did I say.....I've always been a Yankees fan.

P.S....when I told Ted that I've always been a Yankees fan, he asked me why did I root for him to hit a HR in the upper deck in RF in Yankee
Stadium every time the Red Sox were in town ?

I told him...."back in 1949, and the 1950's, I always felt that the Yankees would win the Pennant every year, anyway."

Ted had a good laugh at my response.


TED Z

[the 'stache]

Ted, I'd have given my left nut for a chance to talk with Ted Williams. Literally. I consider him the greatest pure hitter to ever play the game. Like the Splendid Splinter, I am highly analytical, with a great attention to detail. Unfortunately, I wasn't blessed with the same eye, the same wiry frame and powerful arms that Ted was, or I'd have been a hell of a player myself

On my DVR, I have a few things "saved until I delete", and the HBO special on Ted Williams is one. I watch it at least every few days, and it will remain there until a.) an asteroid hits the Earth, killing all mankind, or b.) Verizon takes my DVR away.

Thank you for sharing your anecdote!

[D. Bergin]

Great thread guys. I also consider Ted the greatest pure hitter who ever lived.

You can also count me as a Yankee fan who thinks Ted probably got ripped on at least a couple of MVP awards, possibly more.

Taking into account the military service he lost and the fact he played most of his career post-segregation, his stat lines are just mind-boggling to look at. If he were around today, everybody would be accusing him of being on PED's.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ted, I'd have given my left nut for a chance to talk with Ted Williams. Literally. I consider him the greatest pure hitter to ever play the game. Like the Splendid Splinter, I am highly analytical, with a great attention to detail. Unfortunately, I wasn't blessed with the same eye, the same wiry frame and powerful arms that Ted was, or I'd have been a hell of a player myself

On my DVR, I have a few things "saved until I delete", and the HBO special on Ted Williams is one. I watch it at least every few days, and it will remain there until a.) an asteroid hits the Earth, killing all mankind, or b.) Verizon takes my DVR away.

Thank you for sharing your anecdote!

Bill

I have met Ted Williams at several BB card shows in the 1980's, and also at Cooperstown on HOF weekend.
Everytime, Ted was very cordial and loved talking about anything BB related.

I left out one more interesting comment Ted told me in response to my....

"back in 1949, and the 1950's, I always felt that the Yankees would win the Pennant every year, anyway."

Ted responded with this......

"If Phil Rizzuto was our shortstop all those years, the Red Sox would have been the Champions."

Ted alluded to The Scooter as being a great lead-off batter, who would start an inning by getting on base
either with a swinging Hit, a Bunt, a Walk, or whatever.


TED Z

[D. Bergin]

I noticed that Ted missed A LOT of games the second half of his career. For those more familiar then myself, was this due to injury issues or just a function of his lack of ability as an Outfielder. Hard to believe they'd want his bat out of the lineup no matter how bad he was out there.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I noticed that Ted missed A LOT of games the second half of his career. For those more familiar then myself, was this due to injury issues or just a function of his lack of ability as an Outfielder. Hard to believe they'd want his bat out of the lineup no matter how bad he was out there.

From May 1952 to most of the 1953 season, Ted was flying Marine fighter planes in the Korean War.

From 1956 to 1960 he averaged about 123 games a season. I wouldn't say that Ted...."missed A LOT of games the second half of his career".

Regarding his fielding ability dealing with the "Green Monster" in Fenway's LF, I recall seeing Ted play his outfield position as good as any other outfielder.

But, if you don't agree with my observation, compare Ted's fielding stats.... Fldg. % = .977 (18 seasons). Compare that with Willie Mays' Fldg. % = .981.

I don't see that Ted was weak in his Fielding performance.


TED Z

[D. Bergin]

I guess I'm asking why a player of Ted's caliber routinely missed 20-60+ games a year for big chunks of his career?

Even before he left for Korea, he only played in 89 games in 1950. He also missed a lot of games after he came back in '54 and '55 before your 1956-60 average kicks in.

Did he have chronic health issues that weren't quite as publicized as Mantle and his creaky knees? Did he come out of that plane crash as unscathed as some reports suggest, or were there lingering injuries as a result?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Even before he left for Korea, he only played in 89 games in 1950. He also missed a lot of games after he came back in '54 and '55 before your 1956-60 average kicks in.

Dave

In 1950, Ted broke his left arm in the 1st inning of All-Star Game, when he slammed into the Comiskey Park scoreboard.

I remember this well....my parents bought our first TV in the Summer of 1950....just in time to watch the All Star game.



TED Z

[JollyElm]

As a native New Yorker (who came around a while after Ted retired), I always had a rhetorical 'hatred' for Ted Williams, and I laugh at that now. This inborn bias is hard to explain to other people who've never lived there, but the Mets, and to a lesser extent the Yanks, were everything to me, so their historical enemies were my enemies. And I always thought his nickname of 'The Splendid Splinter' referred to him being a jerk--like how a splinter in your finger annoys the living h_ll out of you.

With age comes wisdom, and many years ago it took my dad talking about Ted's service in the Korean conflict (my dad was a Korean war veteran, too) that really flipped a switch in me. I started looking beyond how NY hated Boston and all that junk, and realized what a tremendous player and human being this guy was. Yowza!

Thanks for your stories, Ted Z. Great stuff!