Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612

As additional interesting cards get outed will link them here.

[ullmandds]

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

I'm clean, so far, LOL, not that it means much.

[h2oya311]

phew! None from that list are in my collection. I did a quick vlookup in excel. Gotta love technology!

[Peter_Spaeth]

oh my
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2308

[AddieJoss]

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

I can't do better than the explanation in the post.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards?

Cards submitted by a known trimmer. Highly likely that many/all of these cards are trimmed/altered.

[joshuanip]

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

[swarmee]

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.
Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

I’m waiting for a credible company to emerge so I can have them reevaluate my biggest cards. The most important call I relied on from PSA was whether my card was the same one that came out of a pack or box.

I can assess grade largely on my own. Scanning at 1600DPI, you can see incredible detail along the edges. 10x magnification may be sufficient to rush out a numerical grade, but I’m pretty upset these companies didn’t even try to look closer to evaluate authenticity.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

I’m waiting for a credible company to emerge so I can have them reevaluate my biggest cards.

It would be a massive undertaking as well as the need for huge hobby support to launch a new company. From day one you will have people trying to ding your credibility so being transparent is a must. At some point an altered card of some sort will seep through and the minuscule error will cost you reputation points you cant afford to lose as a new business. You also have to worry about staffing and detailed training, greedy staff, and insider fraud. If that is not enough both PSA and SGC have very good attorneys, deep assets/vested interest in the hobby, and great legal teams. Even if you are right 100% and have ample evidence against them you still lost because you would be broke before you got notice of a hearing. PSA and SGC both have their skeletons but that is the options the hobby is stuck with because that is what it wants. Educate yourself about the cards you are buying and stop giving your money away to people you don feel are credible.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612

Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.

[nat]

Forgive my ignorance, since I've never sent anything to get graded. But: doesn't PSA have to buy all of these cards back at prices corresponding to the assigned grade? Isn't that their guarantee?

[swarmee]

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

We'll see how many people actually ask. PSA may also have claims over against fraudulent submitters, which would be interesting.

[swarmee]

Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.

[mattbojo]

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...h&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mattbojo

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...h&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

Wait for it.....


Wait for it.....

whitman111

[Rhotchkiss]

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Hopefully better than the "conserved" 52T Mantle.

[swarmee]

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ard-collection

Well, this thread didn't last long on the PSA board. Here's a capture in case the thread goes poof.

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection?
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:52AM in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
With all the recent news, what does your crystal ball say for impact in 3-5 years?

Part of me feels the hobby is strong enough to learn, recover and move forward with this being an educational moment.

Another part of me feels that if the FBI gets involved and they uncover the worst case scenario, it can decimate the entire grading industry.

Getting ahead of the curve and dumping now, then moving into another area (BBCE boxes, CGC comics, etc.) might be a shrewd move, but it could save 10s of thousands in the long run.

How will you be managing your collection?

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection? 16 votes
Yes, dumping my graded cards and getting out forever. This will change the industry forever.
6% 1 vote
No, it is short-term issue and will actually make the hobby stronger.
43% 7 votes
Yes, dumping graded cards and moving into other areas of collecting, such as comic, sealed boxes, etc.
6% 1 vote
Who cares - it is just a hobby! Stop being paranoid!
43% 7 votes
Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
DBesse27DBesse27 Posts: 287 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:59AM edited June 1, 2019 10:59AM
None of the poll choices fit me. I thought briefly about dumping, I’m not, but not because I believe either that it’s short term or that it’ll strengthen the hobby.

Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set

Also collecting:
1964 & 68 Venezuelan Topps
1974 Topps Red Sox
Andre Tippett

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:09AM edited June 1, 2019 11:13AM
I would never give up the hobby I love because of this situation. Card collecting is more than just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Nothing could ever make me stop collecting, except maybe my wife holding a pair of pliers, but outside of that, nothing will ever keep me from enjoying this hobby.

Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
None of the poll choices fit me so no vote.

Answer to question hell no. Got lots of cards on deck ready to grade.

SdubSdub Posts: 707 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
If your just figuring out now that hucksters have been doctoring cards for centuries, then you should stay out of this great hobby. Be aware of what your buying and the risks involved, and admit to yourself that there are lots of slabbed vintage cards in all grades that have been "conserved" from ALL the TPG's. And most importantly, if you can't afford to have your slabbed card lose half it's value or more, then put your money somewhere else. Just my two cents.

Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:50AM
Some of these reactions are eye opening. Thanks for posting.

Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
erikthredderikthredd Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:55AM edited June 1, 2019 11:58AM
Most of my graded collection is from subbing my own raw cards that I spent hours upon hours comparing and searching thru ebay listings until I found the right card that I would be happy with regardless of what grade PSA eventually gives it. I don't grade often but when I do it's mostly just to get those handpicked cards slabbed & preserved. I have no plans to stop collecting entirely because of what's been going on but I can understand where many people are unhappy with everything and don't blame them for losing faith in that market while deciding to get out now.

Eric

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:57AM edited June 1, 2019 11:59AM
This is an atrocious poll. The options are just stupid. No option for me. I won't be buying anymore PSA or BGS graded cards because their process is clearly the antithesis of what they claim to do, ie it's a complete failure of mission statement. I'll dump a lot of my graded stuff and keep some PC stuff for regrading when there is a trustworthy TPG option.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
1970s1970s Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:04PM
Got out of graded cards years ago because of all the uncut sheets that flooded the market through the mastronet auctions. I knew many of those would find their way into holders, and they did. But I do still collect graded, but not as much as I used to. Much smaller now. But when I do buy graded cards, I look for properly sized cards in scans, and cards that are not 1/16th inch smaller. There are MANY beautiful, unaltered cards resting in PSA 9 and 10 holders that are absolute beauties. You just have to know which ones are good, and which ones aren't. Just think of how many beautiful 1952 Topps cards are in PSA 9 holders that came from the Mr. Mint Massachusettes find. There are many MINT vending and wax beauties resting in holders today that are absolutely 100% good. Just keep your eye out for the short cards in holders. TPG has not done a good enough job with this.

ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:08PM
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

Andy

CommemKingCommemKing Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:18PM
Did I miss something? I haven't heard any troubling news. Post me a link or something please.

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection (Retired)

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection II

perkdogperkdog Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:19PM
I stopped buying graded cards a while ago, it had a lot to do with being able to enjoy my cards more in raw form and not stressing about resale value. Inconsistent grading didn’t help matters much either, regardless of what comes of this new “Epidemic” I think the hobby will drive on

hyperchipper09hyperchipper09 Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:23PM
Nope. Collector only. Though I am a bit disappointed, though not shocked, by what appears to be systemic collusion between a few parties in pursuit of the almighty dollar while also conning buyers and collectors. But that happens anytime big bills are involved.

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:38PM edited June 1, 2019 12:39PM
@ahopkins said:
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:39PM
You wouldn't know there's any trouble. I just lost an auction on Ebay for a PSA Joe Louis card. We fought like animals at the end for it. I got stomped.

nam812nam812 Posts: 9,344 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:55PM
This is a silly poll that assumes everyone knows what "news" you re talking about.

My 1910 Champions T218 set at 100% with a GPA of 5.047, and all 153 cards are scanned.
ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 1:05PM
@sportscardtheory said:

show previous quotes
You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

I'm going to take the high road on this one. Thanks for your insightful evaluation.

Andy

AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 229 mod June 1, 2019 1:07PM
This one is already heading down a path I don't care for, so I am going to wrap it up here.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Looks as if a brown spot under the right armpit has been removed. I just emailed PWCC that I believe the card has been altered and used to sit in a psa 4.5 care. I encourage others to do the same

[mattbojo]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Pretty card for the grade. Shows like an EX+ example with a light vertical back crease downgrading. Part of an impressive run of ever popular T206 White Borders on the auction block. In total well over 500 examples are displayed, which represents the majority of an entire set. One of nearly 20,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 7th Auction of 2016. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.


See the second sentence from the PWCC desciption of the PSA 4 Jennings above. Now see the current description of the PSA 6.5:

Marvelous T206 American Beauty Jennings on the market this month. This card is beautifully preserved with smooth edges, outstanding centering and four sharp corners. Boasts fantastic surfaces with bright color and gorgeous clarity. The single finest example in existence. Deserving of serious attention. One of over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.

Thread: Cross posting list of potentially bad cards Reply to Thread

[Peter_Spaeth]

The list, by the way, is going to be updated soon I have heard, with 20+ new subs.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612

Peter- This is unbelievable....So where are we at exactly with criminal possibilities with PWCC?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Peter- This is unbelievable....So where are we at exactly with criminal possibilities with PWCC?

Dunno, I am not involved and all I have read is their statement that they are working with law enforcement.

[CMIZ5290]

I really wish Jeff L. would chime in. The more that I look into this, the more suspicious everything seems to be, and the more shocking it is, and the more guilty these fraudsters are... I always knew and suspected about the bid shilling with PWCC, but this is a whole different ball game. I'm just wondering what the legal system could possibly do. This guy and his wife have made a ton of money obviously doing things illegally....I can just about bet the house on this though....Ebay won't do a damn thing about it!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another page of recently outed cards here.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=117

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Peter. I know have that thread on my phone and update it once/day holding my breath.... But I (and I am sure others) appreciate you keeping the Net54 group in the loop about the goings on at Blowout and elsewhere

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Another page of recently outed cards here.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=117

The scope of this is just jaw-dropping. I'm out of words

[tmw2ward]

Do we have an idea of the total number of cards that may be altered?

[Peter_Spaeth]

This sub includes the Old Mill Cobb that BO has identified as originally having been purchased by PWCC itself in an SGC 30 holder.

22834524 T206 Polar Bear O'Hara PSA 2 PWCC 7/7/2014
22834525 T206 Polar Bear O'Hara PSA 4 PWCC 10/5/2014
22834526 T206 Piedmont Cobb Green Background PSA 2.5 PWCC 7/7/2014
22834527 T206 Piedmont Cobb Green Background PSA 3 PWCC 6/3/2014 Looks More Like a Yellow Background
22834528 T206 Old Mill Cobb Red Background PSA 4.5 PWCC 7/7/2014
22834529 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834530 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834531 T206 Sweet Caporal Cobb Red Background PSA 6 PWCC 11/2/2014
22834532 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834533 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834534 1933 Goudey #92 Gehrig PSA 3 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834535 1933 Goudey #154 Foxx PSA 4 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834536 1933 Goudey #160 Gehrig PSA 4.5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834537 1933 Goudey #216 Gomez PSA 5.5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834538 1933 Goudey #220 Grove PSA 5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834539 1933 Goudey #223 Dean PSA 5 PWCC 6/4/2014
22834540 1940 Playball #1 DiMaggio PSA 4 NO RECORD OF SALE
22834541 1949 Bowman #50 Robinson PSA 8 PWCC 6/5/2014
22834542 Altered, Min Size or Miscut NO RECORD OF SALE
22834543 1952 Topps #1 Pafko BLACK PSA 5 NO RECORD OF SALE
22834544 1954 Topps #128 Aaron PSA 6 PWCC 11/3/2014
22834545 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
22834546 1954 Topps #128 Aaron PSA 7 PWCC 6/5/2014
22834547 1956 Topps #135 Mantle GRAY PSA 7 NO RECORD OF SALE

Many more subs containing outed cards are in the works I hear.

[forceplay sport]

I have been reading this for about an hour and still not really sure whats going on. Anyone want to give me a readers digest version....

[ullmandds]

Watch this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=9TpKs7DKsto

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tmw2ward

Do we have an idea of the total number of cards that may be altered?

Do you mean (1) the number of cards specifically outed, (2) the number of cards in the same submissions as the outed cards, or (3) how many altered cards are out there in the world?

[Peter_Spaeth]

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3178

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SGC 4.5 Green Cobb
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3178

some of these cards would have gone up on their own..

an issue is if you make a corner rounder that was sharp....is that really altering.

if you bounce the card a few times like in a game on the corner like a kid may of done or put in your spokes..thats not altering a card.....plus that would lower the value ..i guess thats normal wear and tear is not altering.....

on this cobb it is alleged the corners were made worse....by rounding them...also there is some altering alleged to improve the card of course..but the rounding part is whats interesting to me.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

some of these cards would have gone up on their own..

an issue is if you make a corner rounder that was sharp....is that really altering.

if you bounce the card a few times like in a game on the corner like a kid may of done or put in your spokes..thats not altering a card.....plus that would lower the value ..i guess thats normal wear and tear is not altering.....

on this cobb it is alleged the corners were made worse....by rounding them..

It’s altered badly

[tmw2ward]

Peter, what I'm asking is, is there a comprehensive list of Whittman/PWCC cards. I have already found two I purchased on the list and wanted to check all the PWCC cards I have. Thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tmw2ward

Peter, what I'm asking is, is there a comprehensive list of Whittman/PWCC cards. I have already found two I purchased on the list and wanted to check all the PWCC cards I have. Thanks.

The thread I linked to is the subs done so far. MANY more subs are coming.

Here is the list to date.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...48&postcount=1

[tmw2ward]

Thanks Peter!

[Just.Rachel]

At least one small-timer is waiting to see a resolution before sending cards to Newport Beach. I had a batch ready to go, but Orlando's statement made me weary. It's sitting in my cabinet, waiting until I'm confident the investment will be worth it.

I doubt I'm the only one.

They don't care about tiny little chumps like me though. That much is clear.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[GeoPoto]

I think Betsy is the point person for recalling cards for which PWCC believes there is evidence of alteration and which PWCC offers to work with the seller and the TPG to refund, take out of circulation, and turn over to law enforcement.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[samosa4u]

Somebody seriously needs to post an update on this whole mess. Since the FBI got involved, what exactly has changed?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Somebody seriously needs to post an update on this whole mess. Since the FBI got involved, what exactly has changed?

Unless they can delve deeply into PSAs database and inner circle, nothing at all will change. Unless the FBI forces the change, you will see nothing positive or proactive that is done voluntarily. Dishonest people and corrupt entities do not instill change unless they are caught, and the change is forced upon them. Hell, PSA still won’t even admit there’s a problem brewing... despite the endless flood of altered numerically slabbed cards being exposed every day (with no hint of a slowdown in sight).

This hobby/business provides no voice for the consumer... it’s just the same hyperbole and lies from the controlling “powers that be”. Since the hypnotized majority wants status-quo, and the offending companies won’t come clean, the FBI represents our last hope for full disclosure and positive change. Please don’t let us down!