How to put the Forgers Out of Business Quickly

[JimStinson]

This might sound like an over simplification of a complicated process but it's not. FIRST there is no magic wand that any one in the hobby owns that they can wave over an autograph and its going to tell them if its good or bad. Authentication at least at this point in time is not science. To quote an old George Carlin line

"Somewhere in the World is the World's worst doctor and whats truly terrifying is that someone has an appointment with him tomorrow"
he also said
"Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "Practice"?"

So my point is that with autograph dealers , as with doctors, auto mechanics, plummers, Chefs, or just about any occupation you can think of there are some people that are really good at what they do and some that are really bad. Luckily for us the really bad ones are not in business for too long, at least not under the same name so the first question anyone thinking of buying an autograph should ask is "How long has this person been buying and selling autographs?" And autograph dealers or authenticators (yes, even the good ones) Don't have a monopoly on being able to tell you if an autograph is genuine or not. Some of the best "eyes" I know are not dealers, they are collectors.
As a kid in the 1960's I was facinated with getting the autographs of baseball players. This was usually done both inside and outside the stadium, before and after games but the idea of paying MONEY for an autograph in those days was a little silly. Later as an adult I wanted to add those names that for obvious reasons I was unable to acquire as a kid to my collection, At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur let me say that in the "Old days" when I first stated BUYING baseball autographs I asked an old timer....a guy that had been already collecting autographs for many years the best way to go about doing this and not get burned. What he told me was as true then as it is today. He said "Ask other collectors for 10 names of reputable people to deal with, You'll find at least five names that continually overlap and then just do business with those people" So thats what I did and the names I ended up with were, JACK SMALLING, DICK PATMAN, DOUG AVERITT, BILL ZEKUS & TED ELMO. Sadly Bill and Ted would end up getting burned themselves later but thats another story. As a starting point those five names were the guys I spent my money with. I had no reason to go outside that circle at that time because among them they ALWAYS had more autographs to sell than I had money to spend. And as my experience grew so did my circle of people I would deal with. In this day and age with more collectors and more dealers and forums like this one compiling a list of reputable people to deal would be even easier. If I were to do that today the list might look something like this, BILL CORCORAN, RICHARD SIMON, RON GORDON, KEVIN KEATING & RICH ALBERSHEIM and probably a few more names you could add to the list, Since I rarely buy stuff at auction I'm sure there would be at least two auction houses you could include in the mix too. reputable people will have at least two things in common #1) Almost everyone knows who they are because they have been around awhile #2) They are already net working with other dealers and collectors to minimize and eliminate any "mistakes".
At the risk of ticking anyone off, I've always believed that the uninformed collector does as much damage BUYING bad autographs as the crook does when he manufactures them. Again to quote George Carlin,

"Think of how stupid the average person is and realize half of them are stupider than that"

That is the market the bad guys are selling to. If that drys up so will they. Its called "BUYING SMART". It never ceases to amaze me that when guys who should know better shot me a scan of an autograph already under suspicion and I ask them where they got it they mention someone's name that no one has ever heard of or company x, or company z, that is known to be operating out of that gray area of the realm. It helps to keep the crooks in business. Buy smart and in thirty days (or less) the "bad guys" will be pursuing a proper line of work or living back at home in their parents garage.

[drc]

I'm not an autograph expert, but it's similar in baseball cards. The bad counterfeits are bought buy the beginning collectors who know nothing. The problem being that you want the beginners entering as it expands the hobby, and you don't want them being turned off and leaving after buying fakes.

But some (not all) beginners are oblivious to their ignorance, assume they know all they need to know, and wouldn't take sage advice if you gave it to them.

I'm an art historian by trade and in a different collecting guides I included this same all-purpose list of basic collecting tips for beginning buyers.



"Whether it involves celebrity autographs, movie posters, fine art prints, baseball cards, postcards or antique figurines, collecting can be good clean fun for boys and girls of all ages. However, all areas of collecting have fakes, reprints and scams.

The following is a brief but important list of tips that the beginner should read before jumping into the hobby with open pocketbook.

1) Start by knowing that there are reprints, counterfeits, fakes and scams out there. If you start by knowing you should be doing your homework, having healthy skepticism of sellers’ grand claims and getting second opinions, you will be infinitely better off than the beginner who assumes everything’s authentic and all sellers are honest.

2) Learn all you can about material you wish to collect and the hobby in general. The more you learn and more experience you have, the better off you are. Most forgers aren’t trying to fool experts. They’re trying to fool the ignorant.

3) Realize that novices in any area of collecting are more likely to overestimate, rather than underestimate, the value of items they own or are about to buy.

4) Get second opinions and seek advice when needed. This can range from a formal opinion from a top expert to input from a collecting friend. Collectors who seek advice and input are almost always better off than those who are too proud or embarrassed to ask questions.

5) Start by buying inexpensive items. Put off the thousands dollar Babe Ruth baseball cards and Elvis Presley autographed photos for another day.

Without exception, all beginners make mistakes. From paying too much to misjudging rarity to buying fakes. It only makes sense that a collector should want to make the inevitable beginner’s mistakes on $10 rather that $1,000 purchases.

6) Gather a list of good sellers. A good seller is someone who is knowledgeable and trustworthy. A good seller fixes a legitimate problem when it arises, and has a good authenticity guarantee and return policy.

It’s best to buy real expensive items online from good sellers, including those you have already dealt with or those who otherwise have strong reputations."

[JimStinson]

BINGO ! drc you nailed it

[Deertick]

Jim, First off will you consider changing your name? There are an inordinate amount of Jim's on here!

Secondly, I agree with everything you said except the outcome. The main problem with these forgeries is that they have been more or less forced underground. Out of the major auction houses and dealers (and to some extent eBay) and into a nebulous secondary market. Craigslist, small local auctions, flea markets, Amazon, anywhere buyer meets seller. The target is now unsophisticated impulse buyers, and/or resellers. The motivation being the "deal" or easy profit. And I believe the economic impact is far greater than what had been previously passed through the major channels. For every $600 autograph that slipped through prior, fifty $50 "signed memorabilia" pieces are being sold daily. And as Richard and others have said: Last one with the item loses.

[drc]

I recommend either Ned or Ebeneezer. Ebby for short is fine.

[JimStinson]

Jim---- I agree with you

Secondly, I agree with everything you said except the outcome. The main problem with these forgeries is that they have been more or less forced underground. Out of the major auction houses and dealers (and to some extent eBay) and into a nebulous secondary market. Craigslist, small local auctions, flea markets, Amazon, anywhere buyer meets seller. The target is now unsophisticated impulse buyers, and/or resellers. The motivation being the "deal" or easy profit.

and thats exactly my point, that "secondary market" will be the outlets that have been in business 6 months or fit the catagory of "Autograph sellers no one has ever heard of" They may be well intentioned but uniformed. If they are unable to sell their product whatever it is then they stop buying. The "impulse buyer" non collector will likely never come into contact with any of us in the hobby anyway and in my opinion there are not enough of them to sustain a profitable business as they might only buy one autograph in their lives

[JimStinson]

Also agree with you that there are WAY too many people named Jim in this world

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

The "impulse buyer" non collector will likely never come into contact with any of us in the hobby anyway and in my opinion there are not enough of them to sustain a profitable business as they might only buy one autograph in their lives

Nedster,
While they may not come in contact with 'hobby people', they will most certainly come in contact with the the scammers or their residue. And there are exponentially more of 'them' (impulse / uninformed resellers) than 'us'. More than enough to keep a multitude of unethical dregs afloat for a long time.
Scooter