Lot #4 in Goldin Auctions Rocky Marciano gloves have been PULLED. READ

[kengoldin]

We received as a consignment for auction from an extremely well known , well respected collector and dealer in sports memorabilia for the past 25 years a pair of gloves purported to be signed and used by Marciano. With those gloves we received a notarized letter from the original owner. Based on research of that original owner , it was obvious he was a friend of Marcianos and did have a close relationship with him for many years.

After accepting the gloves into consignment, we contacted PSA to authenticate the signature on the gloves. After a review on site in NJ as well as a review in CA, PSA/DNA issued two LOAs , one for each signed glove. Complete with the PSA/DNA certification as well as the notarized letter we placed the gloves into the November 17th auction.

After the release of the catalog online I was alerted to a post in this forum. After reading the post we immediately edited the description to ensure that it was not implied PSA/DNA was certifying any ‘use’. I also personally contacted the original poster and one other who was said to be affiliated with him. They were both invited to come see the gloves in person and render an opinion, at my expense. One of them (Travis) did respond, although I was not able to get a phone # to have a discussion with him. The other (Mark Ogren) did not respond to several requests by email or phone. (until several days later on 10/24). My discussion with Travis led us to contact an attorney who could properly investigate the gloves for us, who advised us that legally we had taken the right steps to ensure authenticity, however that was not enough for me. I didn’t want to ‘do enough’ …I wanted to be 100% RIGHT. So we formulated a plan to allow to be ‘100% right’ and if anything did not match up, the item would be pulled. I informed travis of this just so he was aware. Despite some’s desire to see an item pulled the minute they make a comment, based solely on their post, we believe that the correct ,carefully thought out and investigated decision is the correct one, and not the EXPEDIENT and EASY ONE.

We contacted a forensic ink lab and had it verified that the ink the gloves were signed in was available since 1962, which did not of course mean they were signed by Rocky, but did mean that it was period specific ink. I contacted MEARS to assign them the task of photo matching the gloves to images available of Rocky training and sparring in 1951 (and there are images of him using Everlast in 1951). This was to begin Monday 10/29. The third part of this three tiered approach was to contact recognized boxing autograph experts to solicit their opinion. I spoke with Jim Stinson on Wednesday and had a great conversation with him. I also spoke to a long time friend in the business Mike Heffner of Lelands, and I thank both Jim and Mike for their time. I also again invited Travis and Mark to look at the gloves and render an opinion in person at my expense for their travel. Travis mentioned he lived to far away, and Mark replied after I had completed all my other research (first reply to me since start of the post). After Jim and Mike’s feedback I did converse with PSA/DNA and did also converse with the consignor. After these conversations, I informed MEARS I would not need their services as my decision was made.

We respect PSA/DNA and their good work, however in this instance feel that too many individuals in the boxing community feel so strongly that this cannot be Marciano’s autograph that we pulled the item. We will ALWAYS make the correct decision with anything we list in our auctions, and anything we feel we need to remove in our auctions. Please keep in mind we feel it is most important to make the CORRECT decision, as opposed to the EASIEST and most expedient decision, which is why we were methodical in our process and response. Obviously , as you can see from my efforts, we were willing to spend more investigating the gloves then we possibly could have made on a 10% buyer’s premium, however it is most important to us to make the correct decision. I can always be reached directly at ken@goldinauctions.com and I look forward to seeing many of you bid in this and future auctions of ours. Regards, Ken Goldin

[JimStinson]

After all the HOWLING & WHINING now everyone has NOTHING to say ???? WTF !
Hey if someone wants to be a "critic" or an "expert" you are either "ALL IN OR ALL OUT", you put your reputation and your ass on the line. You don;t "bail" when someone wants to discuss it legitimately like in a REAL conversation , and then maybe if one of the parties is sincere the situation is resolved. There has ALWAYS been more GOOD in this hobby/business than bad and this post proves it.

For starters at least give a Thank you for someone "KG" going above and beyond what would have been required for ANY business man to do.
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage sports autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

After all the HOWLING & WHINING now everyone has NOTHING to say ???? WTF !
Hey if someone wants to be a "critic" or an "expert" you are either "ALL IN OR ALL OUT", you put your reputation and your ass on the line. You don;t "bail" when someone wants to discuss it legitimately like in a REAL conversation , and then maybe if one of the parties is sincere the situation is resolved. There has ALWAYS been more GOOD in this hobby/business than bad and this post proves it.

For starters at least give a Thank you for someone "KG" going above and beyond what would have been required for ANY business man to do.
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage sports autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1,000

Kudos to Ken for going the extra mile to get it right.

BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

[toybulldog]

Ken, I do thank you for the removal of the auction lot which contained the questionable signed Rocky Marciano gloves. No, I don’t expect you to hop to just because a post was made regarding the authenticity of the item. My only goal was to post the information and evidence I had which contradicted the authenticity of this item. As for PSA/DNA, I do not have the same opinion as yourself, do not respect them and have seen many questionable authentications and rejections made by them. This one to me was so atrocious and unjust that I felt obligated to make a post about it before someone was financially harmed. My invite for them to participate on the thread was sincere and I was looking forward to debating them on how they came to the conclusion that the Marciano signed gloves were authentic. I can’t imagine them having any supporting evidence and question their motive in authenticating these particular items. By their own choice they chose not to participate. I did not have to come see them in person to acquire the opinion that these items are not genuine as far as the autograph is concerned. When compared to late 1960’s or any other era of Marciano’s signature the signed gloves did not show resemblance and had many inconsistencies.
Your comment…
“ however in this instance feel that too many individuals in the boxing community feel so strongly that this cannot be Marciano’s autograph that we pulled the item. We will ALWAYS make the correct decision with anything we list in our auctions, and anything we feel we need to remove in our auctions.”
…. I can assure you, speaks volumes in the “boxing community” and your faith in us is much appreciated. PSA/DNA does not make an autograph real, nor does my name, Travis name or anyone else’s for that matter.
Ken, thanks again and pardon my delayed response as I was on earlier making another rant and did not notice your thread, you were not being ignored. Also thanks to Jim and Mike for your assistance and opinion.
Ken, also, Travis and myself did do a good going through with these autographs (See below what we comb through) and weren’t just blowing smoke or participating in a witch hunt against a TPA. We’re constantly collecting, documenting, agreeing, disagreeing. What PSA does, we just don't know?








Thumbs up!!
http://www.goldinauctions.com/

Best,
Mark O.

[travrosty]

i am not a paid service and neither is mark and these gloves were obvious from the beginning. did you see all the autographs mark posted above, how many did you get from psa???????????????

what more of a conversation did anyone want when i wrote emails five miles long explaining why it couldnt be marciano's siganture and psa gave no exemplars and no explanation, but of course it is always my fault and marks fault that these gloves are no good? why do i need to call for you to get it across that these gloves did not match any exemplars.

psa skates and gets off scott free and its my fault and marks fault that we were right! That's why a good deed never goes unpunished.

and if people appreciate psa's good work, i am sure they appreciate psa getting the weil manager signed marciano gloves wrong in a recent auction too.

the problem is that people do due diligence AFTER the fact when psa drops the ball and then need to pin it on somebody and its never psa's fault, joe orlando's fault, or steve grads fault. they do a great job, right?

remember, psa has brought you the following great authentications.

John l sullivan letter penned and signed secretarial letter.

bob fitzsimmons wife and manager signed autographs.

james jeffries, tom sharkey and corbett "signed" hotel registry all signed in the same hand.

manager signed dempsey signed photograph.

way too many joe louis "signed" photos and cuts to count that are worth zero.

75 muhammad ali signed photos in a row registered in their database as real that they wont authenticate as real anymore but they are floating out there somewhere in the hobby.

many sonny liston encapsulated and LOA'd "autographs" signed by his wife Geraldine.

An encapsulated Rocky Marciano autograph that is signed by Rocky Graziano.

A George Chuvalo autograph that they certified as Julio Cesar Chavez.

A so called authenticated signature of Battling Nelson on a photo of Terry McGovern.

this is a great job by them and remember that neither I nor Mark made these mistakes, so pinning these gloves on us doesn't wash. It's not our fault, we know boxing autographs, and I get emails all the time from authenticators asking for my help, and I don't need to call them on the phone.

call up joe orlando and see if he takes your call. see if he gives exemplars, and see if he will explain their authentication. they won't.

then come on here and say they do a great job. It's not my fault these gloves are no good and provenance is almost worthless this day and age as it can be easily manufactured. I have always been available to help, which is what I did, because it was a slam dunk and I explained my opinion thoroughly and just because I don't call on the phone doesn't mean i don't know boxing autographs. if you dont take my word or marks right away that they are bad, why do you take psa's word right off the bat that they are good? we didnt ask for you to take our word right away that they were bad, we wanted to prove it to you through exemplars, which we did, but psa's loa is so much more convincing that it is good with all the exemplars they provide?

ask mark when was the last time i called him on the phone?

Mark makes a great point when he says he knows how myself and him authenticate autographs, we take time, sometimes hours upon hours sifting through the largest exemplar files around to come to a careful decision. We don't know what psa does because to call a chuvalo autograph a chavez autograph is impossible in the world that me and mark live in. it cant happen because if someone doesnt know the difference between the two , they should be as far away from boxing autographs as they can be and do something else.

every time we have ever pointed out a bad mistake, the item gets pulled or there is no rebuttal from psa or jsa, we have had to issue no retractions. we are 100 for 100 because we dont go off half cocked. we take time to figure it out. we dont issue loa's like water.

[toybulldog]

BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

If you are one that supports TPA's I would have to say that is the biggest projection I've ever heard. PSA/DNA was invited to come on here to discuss a bogus authentication with an estimated value of $25,000 and they chose not to participate. When it comes to posting evidence or giving an evidence based explanation they are always MIA. Doesn't anyone here want to see the entire "world's leading autograph experts" debate the lone "independant operator bread route salesman" over these Rocky Marciano signatures? Sounds like a damned monster movie?

[whitehse]

I didnt get involved in the original Marciano thread because, well, I dont know enough about the subject to even comment on it. I do applaud Ken for doing the right thing and pulling the plug on the auction. I do find it beyond crazy that PSA/DNA would not even dignify their work with a response. I wouldnt think they would come here to respond but at least an email to Ken would have been appropriate!

I have one question for Ken. Any chance you could pay my way to your offices so I could render my opinion on all the great stuff you have there? I have very little experience authenticating anything but I would love the opportunity to hang out and see what you have!! I could even report back to the members of the board.....kinda like a working vacation!!

Of course I kid but what a great trip that would be!!

[JimStinson]

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com