1918 Red Sox Babe Ruth Contract (VERY COOL)

[Runscott]

If there has already been a discussion on this, and I missed it, then my apologies. This seems to be such a huge item, that it's worthy of talking about. (Official Runscott Disclaimer: I'm not questioning its authenticity)

This just sold in Clean Sweep for $71,348 plus the juice. I was amazed to see such an item in handwritten form - they generally typed such documents; for example, here's another 1918 contract also signed by Ruth and Frazee: http://dkarpeles.com/sports/babe-ruth-contracts/1918/

I realize that amendments, addendums do end up as handwritten notes, so again, I'm not questioning authenticity. In fact, they are both dated January 11, 1918, so it makes sense that the handwritten one could have been a result of additional negotiations, that was quickly drawn up during signing of the typewritten one. Here's the link to the Clean Sweep handwritten one:

1918 Ruth Contract - Clean Sweep

Below are both the typewritten version, and the handwritten Clean Sweep one.

[Fuddjcal]

This looks like a case for "super sleuth" and the Hall of Shame?

[Big Dave]

I'm sure if there is any "monkey business" going on....Mr. Nash will expose it.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I'm sure if there is any "monkey business" going on....Mr. Nash will expose it.

...and find some way to blame Mr. Lifson.

[Runscott]

It's a discussion, so anything goes, but the last thing I would want to see in this thread was mention of Nash. I figured you guys would be interested in discussing the actual items.

[kengoldin]

I was the under bidder on this document. Had it not been for the 25% BP for bids 130am or later, I may have bid again and won it.
I have no doubts as to its authenticity. It was offered about 13 years ago at Guernseys, and in 2005 on Steve Geppi's roadshow fwiw.
If the winning bidder is a member of this forum, I would appreciate you contacting me
thanks
Ken Goldin
ken@goldinauctions.com

[maniac_73]

Wow very cool! Certainly a museum piece and an important part of history


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[thebigtrain]

I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the "boilerplate" printed AL contract. The parts typed in with a typewriter appear to be in a font style that was not available on the typical typewriter in 1918. This is especially evident in the typed word "Massachusetts," which oddly is in lower-case whereas all the other typewritten portions are all caps.

The boldness (or lack thereof) of the typewritten portions is also cause for concern. Most typewriters of this vintage really "whack" the paper, and leave much "bolder" ink behind, also with more "ink bleed" around the edges of each letter, which almost gives them a "fuzzy" appearance. The capital "As" in this document are "dirty," meaning the open spaces of the letter are somewhat ink-clogged/dirty. To my thinking, a typewriter is a forger's best friend, because outside of typeface geeks like me, most people would never think to analyze such a thing (as Dan Rather found out the hard way in 2004 with the fake Bush national guard docs).

The fact that an upper-case letter "I" is used instead of a numeral for the number "I500" is also suspicious. It would also be customary (as is the case today) for the name Harry Frazee to be typewritten out as well, not simply the word "president." In fact, I believe the boilerplate printed line where someone typed "President" was supposed to be the line for Ruth (or whatever player was signing it) to sign. Ruth appears to have "signed" below in a cramped way. Notice that the notary/witness gets his own dotted "boilerplate" signature line as well.

All of this typing appears to have been done on a circa early 50s electric machine, although closer analysis than is possible from these scans would be needed for a definitive answer.

For this price point (about the cost of a nicely equipped Mercedes), I'd have had a typeface expert/forensic document examiner take a look in person before throwing my $$$ at this thing. Just a few seconds looking at the scans gave me a really bad "gut feeling."

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by thebigtrain

I have serious doubts about the authenticity of the "boilerplate" printed AL contract. The parts typed in with a typewriter appear to be in a font style that was not available on the typical typewriter in 1918. This is especially evident in the typed word "Massachusetts," which oddly is in lower-case whereas all the other typewritten portions are all caps.

The boldness (or lack thereof) of the typewritten portions is also cause for concern. Most typewriters of this vintage really "whack" the paper, and leave much "bolder" ink behind, also with more "ink bleed" around the edges of each letter, which almost gives them a "fuzzy" appearance. The capital "As" in this document are "dirty," meaning the open spaces of the letter are somewhat ink-clogged/dirty. To my thinking, a typewriter is a forger's best friend, because outside of typeface geeks like me, most people would never think to analyze such a thing (as Dan Rather found out the hard way in 2004 with the fake Bush national guard docs).

The fact that an upper-case letter "I" is used instead of a numeral for the number "I500" is also suspicious. It would also be customary (as is the case today) for the name Harry Frazee to be typewritten out as well, not simply the word "president." In fact, I believe the boilerplate printed line where someone typed "President" was supposed to be the line for Ruth (or whatever player was signing it) to sign. Ruth appears to have "signed" below in a cramped way. Notice that the notary/witness gets his own dotted "boilerplate" signature line as well.

All of this typing appears to have been done on a circa early 50s electric machine, although closer analysis than is possible from these scans would be needed for a definitive answer.

For this price point (about the cost of a nicely equipped Mercedes), I'd have had a typeface expert/forensic document examiner take a look in person before throwing my $$$ at this thing. Just a few seconds looking at the scans gave me a really bad "gut feeling."

Wow. that is fascinating and food for thought on this Piece. and that much coin makes a huge difference

[Runscott]

It is definitely fascinating food for thought.

Please post an example of a boilerplate contract from that period that looks the way you think it should. Perhaps there is another Red Sox, Frazee-signed piece out there to compare to?

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It is definitely fascinating food for thought.

Please post an example of a boilerplate contract from that period that looks the way you think it should. Perhaps there is another Red Sox, Frazee-signed piece out there to compare to?

No need to get nasty I just felt that the man had some good points, since he knows a lot bout Type and machines, etc

Originally Posted by thebigtrain

It would also be customary (as is the case today) for the name Harry Frazee to be typewritten out as well, not simply the word "president."

For what it's worth, I've looked at about a dozen signed player contracts from the 1910s (using Google), and none that I've seen so far have the club president's name typed out - they all just simply have "president" typed, or often just handwritten, under the president's signature.

In fact, a lot of the ones I've checked look pretty sloppy and informal by today's standards, with mixtures of upper and lower case type, handwritten additions that aren't initialed, signatures that aren't notarized, witnessed or dated, dates typed or written above or below the appropriate sections, overlapped writing or type, etc. My impression is that baseball contracts of the 1910s weren't nearly as formal, detailed or precise as baseball or most other contracts are today (that's assuming, of course, that not all of the contracts viewable on line are forgeries).

[thebigtrain]

Look at this 1915 A.L. contract for a "nobody" player named Eugene Layden:

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...No=27011#Photo

Notice how on the last page (above the signature blocks) is a typewritten notation that "the interlineations on line 7 of clause 1.... were inserted before signing."

Kind of less exciting than the handwritten "incentive" clause, eh?

I don't have an opinion on the handwritten item, other than to say I've seen far stranger things.

From what I've read, it was brought to market 5 or 6 years ago by uber-collector and former DiMaggio business manager Bert Padell. This is its provenance according to an old Padell interview in Sports Collectors' Digest:

“I have a letter from the president of the Boston Red Sox in January of 1918, his next-to-the-last last year as a Red Sox (and where Ruth pitched extensively) that said, ‘If you win 24 games, you get a $1,000 bonus (he had won 23 and 24 games in the previous two seasons), and if you win 30 games, you get a $1,500 bonus.’ “And it’s signed George Herman ‘Babe’ Ruth, and by the president of the Red Sox, Harry Frazee. A man in Westchester, N.Y., that I met through one of my clients in the entertainment business had this big box of items from the Red Sox in his attic, and it had been there for 30 years or more. And there was all this memorabilia, and he asked me if I wanted to buy it.” Padell told him that he had never bought anything in his life. So he brought the stuff to Padell’s Midtown Manhattan office to have him look at it, and there are the letter and two contracts signed by Ruth, and he also had a lot of Red Sox contracts. “He offered them all to me for $5,000,” said Padell. “And I told him again that I had never bought anything, and he said he needed the money and he was in debt. So I said, OK. This was 25 years ago or so. And I paid him.” And then Padell got a call from him the next day, and he said that a friend of his had called and offered him $25,000 for two of the Ruth items. “And I asked who his friend was, and he said, ‘Barry Halper.’ And I said, ‘You’ve got to be kidding.’ “And he let me photocopy the Ruth contracts and I got the letter and I got the Red Sox players contracts.”

I don't know if that would be considered solid provenance, but Padell acquired the item about 30 years ago, the previous owner supposedly had it for 30+ years, and perhaps more importantly it was offered to Padell with a number of similar vintage contracts and related documents whose authenticity have apparently not (yet) been questioned.