Piedmont 150 plate scratch(es) progress

[steve B]

A while back I noticed a piedmont 150 back with what looked like a line from a plate scratch.

Figuring that there was a scratch caused by some debris towards the end of production, I started looking for more examples hoping to maybe find 4 or 5 that strung together which would be a step towards figuring out the sheet layout in some concrete form. Combining this with double name cards and miscuts might lead to figuring out a block of cards rather than just a couple pairs.

After a few months of looking mostly on Ebay I've found nearly 30 cards showing some part of the plate scratch.

That back plate got way messed up at some point.

At least one scratch running vertically, at least two runing horizontally, probably more like 3 or 4.

I've also found one other plate flaw that's consistent, and found on two different cards.

Here's an example of one of the plate scratches. This one on a Cobb bat on shoulder, which has so far 3 different positions showing different damage.


Cobb bat on also has one where the lines cross near the center of the card and one without a crossing line as well as a normal back.

Another surprise has been figuring out that the damaged plate was used for more than one group of fronts
And some evidence that it was eventually repaired to some degree but I'm not certain about that

If you've got scans of cards showing thses lines I'd be glad to see them and add to the ones I've seen so far. Don't worry about it being the same as one I already have, as I'm trying to figure out the posible repair and a few other things.

Steve B

[z28jd]

I don't want to get this off-topic from the plate scratches, but what you said about piecing a sheet together was on my mind today. I figured between the miscuts with two different players, the cards with the crop marks in the corners and the nearly impossible to find, piedmont backs printed upside-down, with parts of four backs showing, you might be able to put together a possible sheet layout. I figured the pied/upside/4backs are so rare(seven are known to me) that you could assume they came from the same sheet.

You just added a new way to figure out a possible sheet, that I never even thought about.

[Runscott]

Steve, this might be obvious, but I hate to assume anything, so please clarify if I am incorrect: the scratches are on a 'Piedmont backs' plate? If so, won't it be impossible to determine anything about card placement on the FRONT of the sheet? (since the Piedmont back sheet will be the same, but the cards on the front will change?)

[steve B]

Only partly.
The scratched plate was probably only used to print backs for a couple different sheets. I'm certain it was used for two different sheets and I'm hoping that's as far as it went.
(There are also maybe two different groups of scratches, one distinct the other not. The second looks more like it may be a crayon mark, perhaps indicating the plate should have been redone or erased for reuse if it was a stone)

It's still a bit early to tell much for sure, but I'm also looking at other identifying marks on the backs as well as specific front differences.

Between all of it it may be possible to get closer to a sheet layout.
It will be possible to get fairly close to a more provable sheet size.

I had thought that the scratches would have been on the last use of the plate, but that's turning out to not be the case.

Of the cards I've seen, there's one that throws a wrench in the works.
There's a Schulte front view showing the scratch.
But that can't be from the same sheet as the others because the available backs aren't the same.

I have found one of the other marks on two different cards, which means that the two couldn't have been on the same sheet. But that's something for a different thread.

At the worst, the scratches will show us a group of cards that were probably on the same sheet and roughly where they were.

We'll also be able to get a grasp on other things, for instance we know there were multiples of each card on the sheet from the double name cards. And we know there were sometimes different cards vertically from the double/different name cards.
Studying the backs in relation to the fronts should show for instance that there were 4 of each player stacked vertically (The number I'm currently leaning towards)

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Only partly.

It will be possible to get fairly close to a more provable sheet size.

Cool - hadn't thought of that.

Originally Posted by steve B

Studying the backs in relation to the fronts should show for instance that there were 4 of each player stacked vertically (The number I'm currently leaning towards)

Steve B

Are you also thinking that some cards are 'top sheet only' cards and others are 'bottom only'? (for instance, the ones showing remnants of the factory number at the bottom of the sheet?)

Great little project!

[Pat R]

Steve,

Not sure if this is what your looking for but this Piedmont has a similar line.
Also whats your opinion on the lines in this Cycle card?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Are you also thinking that some cards are 'top sheet only' cards and others are 'bottom only'? (for instance, the ones showing remnants of the factory number at the bottom of the sheet?)

Great little project!

That's what I'm thinking.

Although I'd expect to see more with two different names if that was the case. And that's why I'm not entirely set on 4 being the number of instances of the same player.

But from looking at the rare cards, 4 looks pretty solid. I'm sure there are 3-4 Magies that can be told apart even from scans that aren't great. And that each diferent Magie front matches to a specific back.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Steve,

Not sure if this is what your looking for but this Piedmont has a similar line.
Also whats your opinion on the lines in this Cycle card?

Thanks! Yes, that piedmont is exactly the sort of line I'm looking for.
Who's on the front? If you have a front scan that would be cool.
That particular one is a new one.

I think the red lines on the Cycle are from a notebook or ledger it may have been glued into at some point.
It looks like there's a little bit of a line above the top of the frame at the upper right. Hard to tell what it's from, but it's interesting.

Steve B

[Leon]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think the red lines on the Cycle are from a notebook or ledger it may have been glued into at some point.
It looks like there's a little bit of a line above the top of the frame at the upper right. Hard to tell what it's from, but it's interesting.

Steve B

Seen those types many times and I agree....

[Pat R]

Steve,

Front and back scans of the piedmont. I didn't even notice the top line on the Cycle until
you pointed it out, the two bottom lines show up clearly with the naked eye
but I had to darken the scan or they didn't show up at all. They are actually
quite different than the scans, they are a sharp blueish line with a pink cast off. The top line comes down the right side to bottom of the top semi circle in the border and there is another line inside that one that comes down the top of the semi circle to the bottom.

[Jantz]

Hi Steve

As you know, I do some research on this subject (T206 sheets). If I locate any T206s with these lines, I'll post them up.

One card that comes to mind is the Randall "Milwaukef" card. They all seem to a small line/plate scratch one the back of the card. Only a fraction compared to the ones you have posted in this thread. Piedmont 350 f25 incase you were wondering.

If there is any way I can help, let me know.


Jantz

[teetwoohsix]

Great thread Steve !!

I thought I had one with one of these lines, but I'm not finding it in my scans. I'll check the cards in the next few days to see if I do, my scans suck.
Great observation though, I hope this goes somewhere- any pieces to the puzzle help

Sincerely, Clayton

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Hi Steve

As you know, I do some research on this subject (T206 sheets). If I locate any T206s with these lines, I'll post them up.

One card that comes to mind is the Randall "Milwaukef" card. They all seem to a small line/plate scratch one the back of the card. Only a fraction compared to the ones you have posted in this thread. Piedmont 350 f25 incase you were wondering.

If there is any way I can help, let me know.


Jantz

Thanks, I'll make a note of that for the bigger project (Front differences over all backs, probably won't make any real headway on that one)

The Assortment of marks on the P150 back is something I think is possible. I'm only a few months in and there's already some progress. Plus it's a somewhat limited group of cards that are common. There are some interesting marks on other backs, but they're more difficult.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Great thread Steve !!

I thought I had one with one of these lines, but I'm not finding it in my scans. I'll check the cards in the next few days to see if I do, my scans suck.
Great observation though, I hope this goes somewhere- any pieces to the puzzle help

Sincerely, Clayton

Anything helps. The scans I have so far are almost entirely from Ebay. So they're the whole range Nice big ones, blurry, tiny....

I'm still working out a way to try to arrange them. I'll probably make a bunch of back images cut them out and draw in the lines to make it like a big puzzle. Pretty old fashioned, but that's the way the stamp guys did it back in the 30's when they couldn't legally show a picture of a stamp or even a complete drawing. Amazing work, usually reconstructing entire press sheets of 2-400 stamps from tiny differences and pairs strips and blocks.

Steve B

[z28jd]

I had to find a t206 today and the first card I picked up was a Seymour batting p150 with these scratch marks. I'll post a scan shortly after I check for more

[Jantz]

Steve

Hope this one helps


Jantz

[atx840]

Steve, I think I sent you this Crawford throwing. Two of the three P150 planks have a similar marking run across the "Cigarette" line.

[steve B]

Thanks Jantz and Chris. The chase is new, and those are better scans of the Planks than the ones I had.

I also have a scan of another p150 Plank. A fourth one, but I don't remember where the scan came from. That one doesn't have the scratch, but is different from the other unscratched one..

Steve B

[z28jd]

Got around to it finally. These have to be pretty hard to find, all I had was four of them. They are:

Mordecai Brown, Cubs on shirt
Lindaman
Goode
Seymour

[z28jd]

I also have this card that I thought was interesting. Looks like the ink exploded all over the back. I don't think it is a wet stack, the player on front is McBride, who would've been directly over the worst spots. It also looks like just a ton of ink dots, rather than a pattern and the color matches the back color. It was the only card I had like this, so maybe it is nothing, maybe it is something worth starting a new thread over. P350 ink explosions?

[sb1]

Durham, Murphy and Oldring

[Jantz]

One more

[z28jd]

This could be a key card towards your research Steve, crop mark in the top right corner, plus the plate scratch. You now know where one card definitely was on the sheet

It also has a wet sheet transfer, which I noticed on at least one other scan posted too

[toppcat]

After all this it would be pretty funny if the Plank was indeed suffering from plate problems and was pulled!

[tedzan]

Dave

If the T206 Plank was yanked due to "printing plate problems", then why isn't he featured on any other Tobacco cards printed at American
Lithographic (T3, T201, T202, T205, T213, T214, or T215) ?

The real story is that Eddie Plank and his boss, Connie Mack, were anti-tobacco guys. But, they did not go public about this as Wagner did.
They just did not give ATC permission to print their images on these tobacco cards.

Best regards,

TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted, no offense but that is not the “real” story nobody knows the “real” story all we have is theories. Your theory is as good as most but it’s not iron clad fact.

[Pat R]

Steve,

Not my cards but it seems there are three different Neal Ball plate scratches.
I found a bunch of the first one (10 or more) and two each of the other two.
Here are two of each of them.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted, no offense but that is not the “real” story nobody knows the “real” story all we have is theories. Your theory is as good as most but it’s not iron clad fact.

John

Not a theory.....this is documented in Connie Mack's biography. A 2nd source is Connie Mack's Grandson, Connie Mack III. I had a nice conversation with him
at a Philadelphia A's Historical Society Luncheon about 10 years ago. He told me that his Grandfather was very anti-tobacco. He signed my 1950 A's Program.





Furthermore, I came across an article several years ago on Eddie Plank, which noted that Plank would not endorse tobacco products. I guess his RAMLY card
is an exception to this.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted sorry I disagree it is a theory you have. There’s nothing wrong with that but it isn’t fact and does not close the case on the T206 Plank. No matter how nice Mr. Mack’s grandson was or how delightful the tuna salad was at the luncheon. I don’t know if you had tuna salad or not it’s just my theory.

Ted, there are more exceptions to consider than T204. There is T216, T208, and Punch Cigars etc.

It’s an interesting theory Ted and I think it’s as good as any but I think it’s dangerous and a bit early to say case closed. There is also no way for you to say case closed either if you’re being honest. We just don’t know enough about this card or Mr. Planks views on his inserts let alone his motives if he had any at all regarding these.

[Pat R]

Pelty

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

It’s an interesting theory Ted and I think it’s as good as any but I think it’s dangerous and a bit early to say case closed. There is also no way for you to say case closed either if you’re being honest. We just don’t know enough about this card or Mr. Planks views on his inserts let alone his motives if he had any at all regarding these.

John

OK, your argument questions whether Connie Mack and/or Eddie Plank were anti-tobacco. Furthermore, you are skeptical that they did not want their images associated
with tobacco (cigarettes). Fine....so what is your theory why Mack's and Plank's images are not featured in the T3, T201, T202, T205, T213, T214, or T215 sets ?
Seriously, why the T206 Plank card was yanked early in the game (similarly to the Wagner card) ? And, the fact that most of the Plank's were shipped out of Factory #30.
Do you "dig" the significance of why that is so ?

Instead of "slamming" my theory's, present your explanation for why these two major-Major League figures of that era were not printed in any of those 7 ATC sets ? ?

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Ted, there are more exceptions to consider than T204. There is T216, T208, and Punch Cigars etc.

T208

Just a reminder, the Cullivan's Fireside set was printed from the images in the E104 (Candy) cards.





T216

Just a reminder, the T216's were printed from the images in the American Caramel sets.




TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted, I’m not slamming your theory why you are always so defensive is beyond me. I say 2 times above your theory is as good as any I have heard.

I’m simply saying I don’t think you have a smoking gun and its case closed in terms of the T206 Plank. Because quite simply you do not know for 100% certainty that your theory is the “real” story, you may have a compelling argument but you haven’t produced iron clad evidence to support your theory that I have seen. At least not enough for me to say to others this is the reason Eddie Plank’s T206 is tough.

That’s all I’m saying I have my thoughts on the card and will try to type something up later…it will be just my thoughts on the card and not a debunk of your theory. I can’t discredit yours or anyone else’s theory because like you I have no real 100% proof.

Cheers,

John

[teetwoohsix]

Well, I checked and I don't have any with these plate scratches- I do have one that has some ink smattering (not as bad as the ink explosion ) and I have one that looks like the ink is smeared or something. But I'm impressed with how many people have found these plate scratches.

It'll be interesting to see if this will lead to something. Great thread.

As far as the Plank goes, I've heard both the broken plate theory and the anti- tobacco theory, and I don't know for sure- both are good theories- but you are right John, one is as good as another.

Sincerely, Clayton

[atx840]

Awesome work Pat! This is starting to get exciting...for me at least

Looking forward to your thoughts on Plank John.

[wonkaticket]

Almost forgot Chris...here ya go.

Sometimes to me the simplest explanation is the most plausible…Occam’s razor if you will.

My theory is the T206 Plank card is a victim of bad timing and planning.

What I do know and this could be challenged as I don’t claim to know of all the Planks out there. However having kept pretty good records and images of most since around say 1999 I’ve noticed one thing. A good chunk of these cards are 350 series only about 17-20 of the 50+ sold Planks I’ve seen come across the auction block have been 150’s. Of this 17-20 (150’s) this includes the 4 Piedmont examples. Now one could argue people keep the better looking 150’s and dumped the 350’s at auction but I think in the 13 or so years we would have seen a few more.

Given the numbers of 150 vs. 350 I think Plank was added late in the 150 printing process and was obviously carried to the 350. Then for whatever reason was dumped from the sheet for another player, or was missed when laying out the second run of 350’s therefore making him a short printed card. Add a hundred plus years of bicycle spokes and mom’s tossing cards and I’m paying big bucks for Mr. Plank.

What was the process of the sheets, why or how I have no idea. Some folks on here mainly Tim Cathey, Jim Rivera and you Chris along with others have done a good job trying to figure it out etc.

The whole anti-tobacco thing I have a hard time getting behind for two main reasons. Plank is in other tobacco sets mainly via his Horner photo being used on a lot of them. Then second if there really was this anti-tobacco action from Plank why was he carried over to 350. Seems to me if I’m getting nasty grams from Plank I’m not doing two printings of him.

I also add my personal experience into this. Owning a company of which one of our divisions is producing premiums and or retail products for entertainment based IP’s. I know how things get misplaced or made in smaller qty’s due to timing or just simple human oversight. I doubt it was any different 100+ years ago short of technology.

Like I said I’m sure this could be torn apart, but ultimately it’s a theory and with no smoking gun or proof all we can do is speculate…this is my speculation.

Cheers,

John

[RCMcKenzie]

Daniels explained this to me about 10 years ago. He said, "Rob, It's only TBob and those guys, no-one else collects this stuff."

[Pat R]

Abbaticchio,Ames and Criss

[toppcat]

Hey guys-my comment above about a possible broken Plank plate was made with tongue way in cheek! I shoulda put a winker on it!

[wolf441]

Here's my one example.

[t206hound]

looked through a few dozen P150s in my collection and have for sale and had mostly clean backs. These three have scratches, though:

[wolf441]

My Doyle example came from you as well Erick!

[steve B]

That's all wonderful everyone!

I've got a bunch of sorting to do and really can start putting the puzzle together.

I'll probably have something afte the holidays.

Steve B

[iwantitiwinit]

I searched through all my piedmonts and only found this one Schreckengost, sorry the scan isn't great but another possible piece to the puzzle.

[atx840]

Evers blue sky

[z28jd]

Saw this Young on ebay tonight with a nice plate scratch

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Pi...item2a276af2a0

[WillowGrove]

It took me a while to get to it but after checking my set of t206's I found two. In case I don't post a caption properly - The card with the scratch in the middle of the card is Mullin horizontal, the scratch at the top is Donlin Hands on Knees.

Steve B., I believe you're compiling this info - so thank you and hope this helps. -peter

MULLIN DONLIN

[steve B]

Thanks, every little bit will help.

I'm in the process of making a jigsaw puzzle of sorts from the scans I have so far. Then for the fun of matching them up.

Steve B

[Jantz]

Here is another one Steve

Donlin (seated)--Lower left


Jantz

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by sb1

Durham, Murphy and Oldring

I was double checking some of the scans, are the back scans reversed?
Should it be Oldring, Murphy, Durham?

[sb1]

Waddell throwing