seeking alpha article Collectors Universe - A Scandal Waiting To Be Exposed

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://seekingalpha.com/article/426...g-exposed?dr=1

[steve B]

Interesting.

If like me you have the site get stuck and refuse to go to page 3 or 4 you can manually change the page number in the URL and get there.

[ullmandds]

this shouldn't help their stock much!

[Goudey77]

It's just another social media or news outlet trying to jump on this scandal bandwagon for click bait. Nothing new that has not been said already.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

It's just another social media or news outlet trying to jump on this scandal bandwagon for click bait. Nothing new that has not been said already.

Yes, but a new audience.

[Johnny630]

Also a lot of insider sell trading end of last year....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

this shouldn't help their stock much!

It was up a little this morning, down almost 3% right now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It was up a little this morning, down almost 3% right now.

Thinly traded stock, a few trades can move it, if it's going to crash that isn't it.

[dwinters]

Thinly traded so far. Volume picking up. Mostly sellers and few buyers. Wonder if the hedge funds that own have read the article? I think it drops to $10 soon. Insiders trapped. Maybe we see a pr on this soon.

[perezfan]

Down over 5% as of right now (12:35 PDT).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Down over 5% as of right now (12:35 PDT).

Almost 6% with a few more minutes of trading.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Almost 6% with a few more minutes of trading.

Reminds me of this....

first a 10% trim job earlier in the week and now this. Still way up from the beginning of the year, but I wouldn't want to be involved.

Lost another 1 % in the last minute. While nasdaq was up .05% today these idiot jerk offs lost another 7%.

[brad31]

I read Seeking Alpha articles any time they post on a stock I follow. I do not know how many people read them - generally I find them interesting takes on the landscape a company is facing and consider them to be well written. They used to come up on the stock feeds on the IPhone before Apple disconnected their ticker from Yahoo Finance.

[dplath]

The article mentions worthpoint for doing research. Does anyone actually use worthpoint?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by dplath

The article mentions worthpoint for doing research. Does anyone actually use worthpoint?

I have used it many times mostly for art and antiques I am too cheap to pay for the subscription...But it is a very valuable service

[swarmee]

Well, before PWCC was nice enough to give us better access for free, I used to. PSA's tool is only good for front scans, most of the time, since eBay links are usually broken or the sellers do not list them.

[joshuanip]

Given how close to the floor this board is, one consideration would be to keep the stock on watch and wait until it makes sense as a long.

Too early but an intermediate contrarian play on op leverage cheapness.

[dwinters]

THe volume was up slightly today. From 50k to 85k. Wondering what happens if some (or even just 1) of the larger holders dumps. I am expecting class action lawsuit to drop soon. That will be eye opening. I sent all the links to the major short funds.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by dwinters

I sent all the links to the major short funds.

Can you send the Beckett and SSI threads here too?
https://www.dps.texas.gov/CriminalIn...ions/index.htm

Let me know who they assign to the case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by dwinters

THe volume was up slightly today. From 50k to 85k. Wondering what happens if some (or even just 1) of the larger holders dumps. I am expecting class action lawsuit to drop soon. That will be eye opening. I sent all the links to the major short funds.

I bet the guarantee seemed like a good idea at the time. I have to believe they have known for a long long time that there was at least potential for liability well over and above the reserve -- it seems likely they were aware of the volume of doctored cards in the hobby and they can only do so much to keep them out -- but they probably never anticipated it could come to the forefront so quickly and dramatically. I would think that, more than the prospect of reduced revenues, would be the concern of a large investor at this point.

If the stock takes too big a hit there might be a way to fashion a securities fraud suit against CU, as well as whatever collector suits against PSA people are considering.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by dwinters

THe volume was up slightly today. From 50k to 85k. Wondering what happens if some (or even just 1) of the larger holders dumps. I am expecting class action lawsuit to drop soon. That will be eye opening. I sent all the links to the major short funds.

there's not enough liquidity for a major short fund (if there are any major ones left outside of kynikos) to establish a significant short position.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I bet the guarantee seemed like a good idea at the time. I have to believe they have known for a long long time that there was at least potential for liability well over and above the reserve -- it seems likely they were aware of the volume of doctored cards in the hobby and they can only do so much to keep them out -- but they probably never anticipated it could come to the forefront so quickly and dramatically. I would think that, more than the prospect of reduced revenues, would be the concern of a large investor at this point.

If the stock takes too big a hit there might be a way to fashion a securities fraud suit against CU, as well as whatever collector suits against PSA people are considering.

I'm the owner of a very small business & can't imagine the amount of requests for returns & reimbursement that must be going on between PWWC & PSA.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I bet the guarantee seemed like a good idea at the time. I have to believe they have known for a long long time that there was at least potential for liability well over and above the reserve -- it seems likely they were aware of the volume of doctored cards in the hobby and they can only do so much to keep them out -- but they probably never anticipated it could come to the forefront so quickly and dramatically. I would think that, more than the prospect of reduced revenues, would be the concern of a large investor at this point.

If the stock takes too big a hit there might be a way to fashion a securities fraud suit against CU, as well as whatever collector suits against PSA people are considering.

Given their largest holder is an algo, they could be dumping right now because it's most likely failing its momo program.

[swarmee]

And remember, barely anyone knows about this scandal yet.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by dwinters

THe volume was up slightly today. From 50k to 85k. Wondering what happens if some (or even just 1) of the larger holders dumps. I am expecting class action lawsuit to drop soon. That will be eye opening. I sent all the links to the major short funds.

Granted I don't know who you are but once again, as someone who specialized in complex class action litigation, do enjoy the next 12 years as you slowly track a never-ending case. Even if it drops soon and it's eye opening there won't be a resolution for a very long time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kateighty

Granted I don't know who you are but once again, as someone who specialized in complex class action litigation, do enjoy the next 12 years as you slowly track a never-ending case. Even if it drops soon and it's eye opening there won't be a resolution for a very long time.

I've been involved in some that are worse than the case parodied in Bleak House. I'd be interested to hear about a class action against PSA (other than for securities fraud by shareholders) that didn't have predominance issues. My gut reaction, admittedly biased from being on the defense side of these, is that when people talk about class actions and bandy about the prospect of class actions they don't usually understand the requirements.

[Exhibitman]

A mass action of a few dozen aggrieved purchasers in state court would be way more fun.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

A mass action of a few dozen aggrieved purchasers in state court would be way more fun.

Mass instead of class works for me.

[dwinters]

This is material information in my opinion. When will they be obligated to speak to it publicly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by dwinters

This is material information in my opinion. When will they be obligated to speak to it publicly.

Duty to update outside of regular quarterly reporting is a complex disclosure issue. Supreme Court just ducked it recently too. If you're interested this is a typical summary of the conflicting principles and law.

https://www.akingump.com/en/experien...-case-law.html

[dwinters]

The knowledge here is amazing. Thanks.

At a minimum any stock sells by insiders would be highly suspect. A public disclosure of major inside selling would raise more than a few eyebrows.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by dwinters

The knowledge here is amazing. Thanks.

At a minimum any stock sells by insiders would be highly suspect. A public disclosure of major inside selling would raise more than a few eyebrows.

If they have planned sales not so much, but otherwise yes.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been involved in some that are worse than the case parodied in Bleak House. I'd be interested to hear about a class action against PSA (other than for securities fraud by shareholders) that didn't have predominance issues. My gut reaction, admittedly biased from being on the defense side of these, is that when people talk about class actions and bandy about the prospect of class actions they don't usually understand the requirements.

I too have been on the defense side. Who knows we might have actually worked together! Many are quick to say "class action" when they in fact haven't a clue as to how much actually goes into certifying a class before any sort of action happens. Not to mention everything with MDL. Could be years.

[midmo]

Originally Posted by dplath

The article mentions worthpoint for doing research. Does anyone actually use worthpoint?

I prefer Worthpoint because it also includes ungraded, memorabilia and basically anything else you want to look up.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been involved in some that are worse than the case parodied in Bleak House. I'd be interested to hear about a class action against PSA (other than for securities fraud by shareholders) that didn't have predominance issues. My gut reaction, admittedly biased from being on the defense side of these, is that when people talk about class actions and bandy about the prospect of class actions they don't usually understand the requirements.

For us non- lawyers.... What's a predominance issue?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

For us non- lawyers.... What's a predominance issue?

Sorry. One of several requirements to maintain a class action is that common issues must "predominate" over individualized ones. Translated, that means roughly that you need to be able to establish liability towards the entire class by common proof and each plaintiff doesn't have to present his or her case. For example, everyone who bought the stock is injured if the company issued false financials and inflated the stock price. Each member of the class was hurt in the same way because the drug was inherently dangerous, or the car had a manufacturing defect.

But if the question is were people hurt because PSA failed to catch altered cards, or stiffed people on the guarantee, or was bad at grading, that feels to me like each and every person would have to show that on a case by case/card by card basis, even if there was an overall pattern. Just showing the pattern doesn't prove YOU were wronged. You would need to show that YOUR card was misgraded or altered or that YOU were stiffed on the guarantee. If that's the case, individualized issues "predominate" over common ones. If the case has to proceed as a boatload of mini-trials, it doesn't warrant class treatment.

Somewhat simplified but that is the idea.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sorry. One of several requirements to maintain a class action is that common issues must "predominate" over individualized ones. Translated, that means roughly that you need to be able to establish liability towards the entire class by common proof and each plaintiff doesn't have to present his or her case. For example, everyone who bought the stock is injured if the company issued false financials and inflated the stock price. Each member of the class was hurt in the same way because the drug was inherently dangerous, or the car had a manufacturing defect.

But if the question is were people hurt because PSA failed to catch altered cards, or stiffed people on the guarantee, or was bad at grading, that feels to me like each and every person would have to show that on a case by case/card by card basis, even if there was an overall pattern. Just showing the pattern doesn't prove YOU were wronged. You would need to show that YOUR card was misgraded or altered or that YOU were stiffed on the guarantee. If that's the case, individualized issues "predominate" over common ones. If the case has to proceed as a boatload of mini-trials, it doesn't warrant class treatment.

Somewhat simplified but that is the idea.

From an accounting perspective, there is nothing needed to be disclosed, yet.

Deemed contingent liability, it needs to be recorded and disclosed if the liability meets more than likelihood possibility. Although there there may be an inquiry, if there is not yet direct investigation yet of PSA's subsidiary, it is still in discovery and too early to determine liklihood; allowing the company to take the generic "ordinary course" liability disclosure in its notes. Auditors and SEC would sign off as long as there is not enough information to determine the extent of the liability.

Would like to see the Q&A transcript for the Q if they have earnings calls. Is there any brokers that cover them?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been involved in some that are worse than the case parodied in Bleak House. I'd be interested to hear about a class action against PSA (other than for securities fraud by shareholders) that didn't have predominance issues. My gut reaction, admittedly biased from being on the defense side of these, is that when people talk about class actions and bandy about the prospect of class actions they don't usually understand the requirements.

If you are talking about a Fed. R. Civ. P. 23(b)(3) class, not in the context of a securities fraud claim, I think you might have commonality issues too, particularly in the 9th Circuit. If you could avoid that bullshit CAFA and keep it in state court, maybe. Only Oregon residents suing PWCC? I would think that PWCC has its principal place of business there so you might be able to avoid diversity. But what about the rest? IMO, fraud claims are just hard to get certified, having tried and failed a couple of times. Maybe breach of contract? Or, as Adam suggested, mass tort filings? I don't know. I'll stick to insurance bad faith and let you class action lawyers figure it out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/clct/call-transcripts

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

If you are talking about a Fed. R. Civ. P. 23(b)(3) class, not in the context of a securities fraud claim, I think you might have commonality issues too, particularly in the 9th Circuit. If you could avoid that bullshit CAFA and keep it in state court, maybe. Only Oregon residents suing PWCC? I would think that PWCC has its principal place of business there so you might be able to avoid diversity. But what about the rest? IMO, fraud claims are just hard to get certified, having tried and failed a couple of times. Maybe breach of contract? Or, as Adam suggested, mass tort filings? I don't know. I'll stick to insurance bad faith and let you class action lawyers figure it out.

Kenny yeah you might even get hung on 23(a) typicality. IMO, tough sledding to certify a class for the type of claims I am thinking about, other than 10b5 which, if the facts were there, would be easy. I think if you could get a bunch of plaintiffs together Adam's idea is a good one.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/clct/call-transcripts

Thanks, what a joke. They have no sell side brokers covering the stock. No one was on the Q&A. I guess there is no one to hold their feet to the fire.

If anyone knows if there are any brokers covering, please let me know...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

If you are talking about a Fed. R. Civ. P. 23(b)(3) class, not in the context of a securities fraud claim, I think you might have commonality issues too, particularly in the 9th Circuit. If you could avoid that bullshit CAFA and keep it in state court, maybe. Only Oregon residents suing PWCC? I would think that PWCC has its principal place of business there so you might be able to avoid diversity. But what about the rest? IMO, fraud claims are just hard to get certified, having tried and failed a couple of times. Maybe breach of contract? Or, as Adam suggested, mass tort filings? I don't know. I'll stick to insurance bad faith and let you class action lawyers figure it out.

I was thinking claims against PSA so California would be the state court venue.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was thinking claims against PSA so California would be the state court venue.

Still the 9th Circuit. Same problems although the proposed class would probably be much larger. Just not seeing it on a consumer fraud claim.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Still the 9th Circuit. Same problems although the proposed class would probably be much larger. Just not seeing it on a consumer fraud claim.

Agreed.

[dwinters]

Seems as though the smart money has figured out what is going on at psa. Makes me wonder how many people will stop submissions to psa and how many will stop bidding on high end cards in auctions. Finally, Psa has to be super paranoid about fueling the fire by giving high grades to trimmed and doctored cards.

Anyone here glad that they lost to another bidder in a recent auction? Anyone planning to stop buying until more clarity achieved?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by dwinters

Anyone planning to stop buying until more clarity achieved?

Yes. In the meantime I'll be working on my 1975 Topps set. I love those stupid borders.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by conor912

Yes. In the meantime I'll be working on my 1975 Topps set. I love those stupid borders.

And.... any trimmed cards could be just part of the 1975 minis set!
I do have some nice (untrimmed) raw ones though, if you are interested though (or have a want list).

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sorry. One of several requirements to maintain a class action is that common issues must "predominate" over individualized ones. Translated, that means roughly that you need to be able to establish liability towards the entire class by common proof and each plaintiff doesn't have to present his or her case. For example, everyone who bought the stock is injured if the company issued false financials and inflated the stock price. Each member of the class was hurt in the same way because the drug was inherently dangerous, or the car had a manufacturing defect.

But if the question is were people hurt because PSA failed to catch altered cards, or stiffed people on the guarantee, or was bad at grading, that feels to me like each and every person would have to show that on a case by case/card by card basis, even if there was an overall pattern. Just showing the pattern doesn't prove YOU were wronged. You would need to show that YOUR card was misgraded or altered or that YOU were stiffed on the guarantee. If that's the case, individualized issues "predominate" over common ones. If the case has to proceed as a boatload of mini-trials, it doesn't warrant class treatment.

Somewhat simplified but that is the idea.

Thanks!

Simplified is probably best for us non- lawyers...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Thanks, what a joke. They have no sell side brokers covering the stock. No one was on the Q&A. I guess there is no one to hold their feet to the fire.

If anyone knows if there are any brokers covering, please let me know...

Up 70 cents today so far. It may crash but it isn't going to be linear absent some much bigger bombshell than a blog post.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Thanks!

Simplified is probably best for us non- lawyers...

Any time. People who don't know the law love to throw around the prospect of class actions but sometimes it isn't that simple.