A Very interesting auction

[RichardSimon]

We had a poll here a while ago and the vote was overwhelming that in a question of who should issue a refund in the event an autograph is not authentic, and has been issued a COA. The group voted that the dealer is responsible for refunding the money.
Travis and I have pointed out many things that are wrong with TPA's. But even I don't think they should be held financially responsible for an error, except in the most egregious circumstances. To me a mistake like the Cobb cut and the Delehanty letter are egregious mistakes.
I know I keep pounding on that Delehanty letter, but geez did PSA and JSA actually think the guy misspelled his own name??

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

We had a poll here a while ago and the vote was overwhelming that in a question of who should issue a refund in the event an autograph is not authentic, and has been issued a COA. The group voted that the dealer is responsible for refunding the money.
Travis and I have pointed out many things that are wrong with TPA's. But even I don't think they should be held financially responsible for an error, except in the most egregious circumstances. To me a mistake like the Cobb cut and the Delehanty letter are egregious mistakes.
I know I keep pounding on that Delehanty letter, but geez did PSA and JSA actually think the guy misspelled his own name??

So would you call on them to insure the $30,000 selling price? If they both authenticated it, should they split the payment, or each pay that amount? And to whom, exactly? Or should they just refund the authentication price (which is like 200 bucks, plus shipping and all that)? But what, then, if the letter has changed hands a bunch of times since the original submission?

I think we'll agree that, in the end, the dealer/auction house is on the line. It is they who choose to use TPAs or not. The problem from their standpoint is, buyers want them, so they currently add to hammer prices. Hunt doesn't generally use them (from what I've seen), and I've passed on some items that I thought questionable there. Leland's doesn't either, and I've found them to be above reproach (never purchased from them, but have had wishlists in the past).

[RichardSimon]

Not sure how I would handle that $30K letter now that you point that out.
What happened there to me is a horror, should never have happened. I wonder about the motivation of the TPA's when something like that happens.
I have authenticated for auction houses, I know what goes on in authenticating sessions. I am not accusing anyone but as I explained here in an old thread, pressure was applied to me and the members of my authentication team by one particular auction house, American Memorabilia. I did work for several other auction houses and none of them applied any pressure.
And Leland's does not use TPA's because Josh and Mike Hefner are as good or better than the TPA's we are discussing.
Not sure about what Hunt usually does as they were the ones who sold the Delehanty letter for $30K, with COA's from JSA and PSA. I think they use TPA's for certain items or for their major auction, but correct me if I am wrong there.

[Big Dave]

Ebay made PSA and JSA relevant in regard to autographs. Without eBay, they wouldn't matter at all.

[travrosty]

The guarantee would just be spelled out in exact terms, the company would be on the hook for their mistakes. they should have to pay up when they screw up.

i have all the details and specifics that would make for a good guarantee policy but these companies arent going to do it.

[HexsHeroes]

.

Having bought afew autographs from Mark Jordan at one of the National Shows at the end of the 1990's, I'm curious to know what other collectors opinions are of his past and current reputation and knowledge ?

I have always kinda leaned towards his reputation as falling into the same category as Mike Guetterez (in his early GAI days). Now that both are with Heritage Auctions, does the big business affiliation influence a different opinion ? More distrust due to preceived big-business greed ?

Can't help but note that most of those individuals identified now for their knowlege, reputation, and integrity still own their own small businesses.

I firmly believe in doing my homework, continuing to further educate myself, and trusting my own opinion/gut feeling, but it's is helpful to have someone far more experienced and knowledgable to trust once in a while, on an item infrequently encountered.

[J.McMurry]

question is, is it legit?

personally I dont like it, but where would the majority of people take the ball if they didnt trust JSA?

These guys are covering themselves.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Ebay made PSA and JSA relevant in regard to autographs. Without eBay, they wouldn't matter at all.

auction houses started the craze when mastro would bring dealers and people around at shows and so forth and tell them he wanted them to meet his guy spence. and then grad came through the mastro pipeline too.

it was a way for auction houses to push more and more material through and absolve themselves from the liability of the autographs by pushing these tpa's on people. even though though the tpa's put it in their fine print that they aren't liable either, thats its just their opinion that can change without notice and without and renumeration or warranty to the buyer.

but auction houses still play the game of making it look like there is some type of guarantee, like when heritage will put in its tagline.

"encapsulated by psa/dna for unquestioned authenticity."

that makes it sound like it is guaranteed to be real, you cant even question it.



the auctions started it and the online auctions like ebay just ran with it from there.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

auction houses started the craze when mastro would bring dealers and people around at shows and so forth and tell them he wanted them to meet his guy spence. and then grad came through the mastro pipeline too.

it was a way for auction houses to push more and more material through and absolve themselves from the liability of the autographs by pushing these tpa's on people. even though though the tpa's put it in their fine print that they aren't liable either, thats its just their opinion that can change without notice and without and renumeration or warranty to the buyer.

but auction houses still play the game of making it look like there is some type of guarantee, like when heritage will put in its tagline.

"encapsulated by psa/dna for unquestioned authenticity."

that makes it sound like it is guaranteed to be real, you cant even question it.



the auctions started it and the online auctions like ebay just ran with it from there.

The more I read from you Travis the more I agree with you. If what you say is true, then the only real logical conclusion to be made is that the entire thing is just an elaborate scam. Nothing more.

[yanks12025]

Even though it didn't pass PSA, still will sell for alot of money. Haul Of Shame did a article about Mathewson balls today.