T206 production/printing questions/comments

[caramelcard]

Anybody have any thoughts on this question from the first post?


"If they were printed at the same place, then where did the overstrikes come from and how can they be explained? I guess it's possible but I doubt the card backs were printed with the intended distribution factory on the back and then struck again before they left the same place where they were printed."

They were printing the backs with factory numbers and then overstriking them there too before they left?

[atx840]

This is really long and likely not interesting to most but here goes.

The 34 SC150F649OP backed subjects look to be, for the most part grouped together for several backs. It would make sense that several of these sheets were selected to be used with F649 packs. At some point were overstruck.

The F42s are a bit more complex and very interesting to study. The theory is that some sheets were selected to be F42OP and some F30.

At one point 109 SC460F30 cards were printed however only 52 made it into the wild, the rest being overprinted.

These 52 are comprised of a base group of 34 cards (these 34 are in every 460 back except for P42). In addition to the 34 any of Teds Exclusive 12 (broken into groups of 6 or smaller) and the 6 super prints could be substituted in to those 34. This allows for several possible combinations of 34. Doubling up the Exclusive 12 into the base could get us the higher percentage that we see making them "Exclusive".

That leaves 57 (109-52) original F30s that were at some point overprinted to F42 that never showed up in the wild as F30. Well some did but not in packs see further down.

This 57 is based on two 28 base groups and a second printing of one swapping out Dougherty with Ames hands above head. 28 + 28 + 1 = 57. Some 460 backs have Ames, some have Dougherty and some have both.

Now those 28 base groups in combination with the Exclusive 12 (broken into smaller groups of 6) and the 6 super prints allow for multiple combinations of 34. The Exclusive 12 again could have been doubled up and swapped into the base 28 to get a higher percentage of those 12.

These combinations of 34 are found in every 460 back except for Sov 460, which uses the earlier mentioned base of 34+12+6 (identical to SCF30).

The theory is that some sheets were selected to be F42OP and some F30.

Lucky enough a wonderful thing happened. One sheet of 34 F30 destined to be overprinted, a 28 base group and the 6 super prints was scrapped mid print and never overprinted.....these are known as the yellow brown scraps. Every known example fits into one base group of 28 + 6 superprints. There are 1-3 examples of each, with one having four. This fits into the theory that multiple stacked examples of each card was used.

The base 28 yellow browns are special as they have a F30 back that never made it to the overstrike machine, technically ALC never intended them to get out. Pretty cool.

And, this is just my theory.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Anybody have any thoughts on this question from the first post?


"If they were printed at the same place, then where did the overstrikes come from and how can they be explained? I guess it's possible but I doubt the card backs were printed with the intended distribution factory on the back and then struck again before they left the same place where they were printed."

They were printing the backs with factory numbers and then overstriking them there too before they left?

Rob

This OLD MILL scrap with the inverted "Factory #649" overstrike printed on it (indicative of the printer's test) prior to overstriking the Sweet Cap 150 Factory #30 cards should convince
you of the fact that the overstrikes were printed at American Litho.

The overstrikes were not printed at any Tobacco factory. These factories employed low-paid employees that operated cigarette rolling machinery and in many instances manually stuffed
the cigarettes into their packs.






TED Z

[caramelcard]

Ted,

That card actually makes no sense to me at all and there's about two
of them in the world so it doesn't really prove much. In fact, there's no reason why they would restrike that back.

Also, that doesn't look to me like the same thickness in font and the same color as the SC backs.

What is your opinion on why they were overstriking the cards?

Were they printing them and then deciding very quickly that they need to go to another factory and then overstriking them?

Rob

[caramelcard]

And I do think that it makes total sense that the fronts and backs were both printed in the same place, I'm just curious about the purpose of the overstriking.

The "low-paid employees that operated cigarette rolling machinery" could've stamped the backs of the T212s and T209s.

Whoever did the SC overstrikes didn't exactly do a great job either.

Rob

[tedzan]

Rob

Here is my Willetts card which has a Factory #42 overstrike. I show you this one since the overstrike is offset and clearly reveals that this card was originally printed with a Factory #30
back. The subjects in the 350/460 series (except the 6 super-prints) that were printed with SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30 were never issued. Instead, American Litho. modified
them with the Factory #42 overprint in order to ship them to the Durham plant in North Carolina. We can only surmise that this was done due to the impending divesture of the American
Tobacco Co. in 1911.







TED Z

[steve B]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Ted,

That card actually makes no sense to me at all and there's about two
of them in the world so it doesn't really prove much. In fact, there's no reason why they would restrike that back.

Also, that doesn't look to me like the same thickness in font and the same color as the SC backs.

What is your opinion on why they were overstriking the cards?

Were they printing them and then deciding very quickly that they need to go to another factory and then overstriking them?

Rob

It makes as much sense as any other printers scrap.

They use sheets to setup the press.
Sometimes they use new sheets.
Sometimes they use sheets with defects.

So a sheet used to setup the 649 OP was used to also setup and test brown OM.

Pretty simple.

The 649 overprints and the 42 overprints are for different reasons.

The F42s are as Ted says probably due to changing the site of production, consolidating it from factories 25 and 30 to factory 42. Preparation for the breakup of the trust seems a likely reason.

F649 ---I think was probably either a decision to produce some SC in that factory maybe because of a problem in another plant or to catch up to an increase in demand. 649 was probably less busy than the other plants.

My alternate theory is that SC production has something to do with Plank. The existing packing logs show a specific notation "for other than philadelphia area" which at the least indicates regional distribution.

As a temporary thing they wouldn't have had cards made with 649 backs for a brand that 649 usually didn't produce. The simplest thing is to have ones made for a different factory overprinted.


Steve B