48 Leaf v. 48 Bowman

[TanksAndSpartans]

I was thinking about starting one of these sets, so I did some research first and wanted to share the results. If anyone else has any interesting facts, notices any errors I made, etc., please post.

Does anyone collect either? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences. I know the Leaf set is more popular, but I really wanted to give the 48 Bowmans their due too.

Here is what I found in no particular order:

-Neither set makes mention of the AAFC which means players like Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Joe Perry, Spec Sanders (ran for 1400+ in 47) aren't included

-Neither set shies away from including African American players, so given the year, I give them both credit for that

-Both sets have a decent number of short prints:

-For Bowman, its the 3rd Series .i.e. sheet 3 i.e. cards with numbers that are multiples of 3 since:
Sheet 1: 1, 4, 7,…
Sheet 2: 2, 5, 8,…
Sheet 3: 3, 6, 9,…

-For Leaf: 50-98, the high numbers are considered short prints. Anyone know more about sheets, etc.? I'm guessing these aren't as rare as the Chicle high numbers?

-Bowman did a nice job of including the "bread & butter" type NFL players - guys like Bucko Kilroy of the Eagles who wasn't a superstar, but was a major contributor to the Eagles 1947-1949 run of 3 championship appearances. Leaf went in a different direction including undergraduate college players, so stars like: Van Buren and Pihos are in, but a guy like Vic Sears is not. They definitely hit some home runs with the undergrads like Doak Walker, Chuck Bednarik, etc. Also some interesting stories like Levi Jackson. On the downside, several of the undergrads played little or no pro football.

-My favorite Bowman: Kenny Washington (2 poetic coincidences: looks like Coliseum in background which is fitting since that is why the Rams signed him - "the commissioners of the Los Angeles Coliseum stipulated as part of the agreement that the team be integrated" (Wikipedia, I've also read similar); he played on same UCLA football team as baseball great Jackie Robinson. Sad Washington didn't get to play in the NFL in his prime, spent best years in PCFL)

-My favorite Leaf: Ted Fritsch - just because he looks like a big leather headed lineman number wearing FB about to run someone over

-Many Leaf cards have variations and I know a lot of collectors enjoy building master sets and I know some are really experts on this aspect. Personally, this never got me really excited - the Eagles wore green, so I'd rather not have a more rare yellow jersey variation of an Eagle player. And ignoring the variations, it does seem to be challenging to get nice examples of some of the cards - I've been chasing the Van Buren for a while and I see a lot that to me look like the production process went awry. And this all seems to add to the Leaf mystique/popularity - while the solid relatively error free Bowman offering isn't considered as interesting I guess.

Finally, on to the players:

Bowman Only
1 Joe Tereshinski 1
2 Larry Olsonoski 2
3 Ray Poole 4
4 Bill DeCorrevont 5
5 Paul Briggs 6
6 Nolan Luhn 9
7 Chris Iversen 10
8 Jack Wiley 11
9 Hugh Taylor 13
10 Gil Bouley 15
11 Art Faircloth 19
12 Clyde Goodnight 20
13 Bill Chipley 21
14 Don Kindt 23
15 John Koniszewski 24
16 Pat McHugh 25
17 Tony Compagno 27
18 Vic Lindskog 30 (Eagles)
19 Salvatore Rosato 31
20 John Mastrangelo 32
21 Fred Gehrke 33
22 Bosh Pritchard 34 (Eagles)
23 Mike Micka 35
24 Pat West 38
25 Russ Thomas 39
26 James Peebles 40
27 Bob Skoglund 41
28 Walt Stickle 42
29 Dick Poillon 49
30 Charles Cherundolo 50
31 Gerald Cowhig 51
32 Neill Armstrong 52
33 Frank Maznicki 53
34 John Sanchez 54
35 Jim Hardy 56
36 John Badaczewski 57
37 Mervin Pregulman 59
38 Elbie Nickel 60
39 Alex Wojciechowicz 61 (HOF, Eagles)
40 Walt Schlinkman 62
41 Joseph Sulaitis 64
42 Mike Holovak 65
43 Cy Souders 66
44 Paul McKee 67
45 Bill Moore 68
46 Frank Minini 69
47 Jack Ferrante 70 (Eagles)
48 Les Horvath 71
49 Boley Dancewicz 74
50 Dante Magnani (sp) 75
51 James Hefti 76
52 Paul Sarringhaus 77
53 Bucko Kilroy 79 (Eagles)
54 Marshall Goldberg 81 (Cardinals, former Pitt star)
55 John Cannady 82
56 Harold Crisler 84
57 Bill Gray 85
58 Dan Sandifer 87
59 Ben Kish 88
60 Herbert Banta 89
61 Bill Garnaas 90
62 Frank Barzilauskas 92
63 Vic Sears 93 (Eagles)
64 John Adams 94
65 Ralph Heywood 96
66 Joe Muha 97 (Eagles)
67 Bill Miklich 100
68 Joe Gottlieb 101
69 Tom Farmer 103
70 Bruce Smith 104
71 Bob Cifers 105
72 Ernie Steele 106
73 Buford Ray 108 (Packers - Baby Ray)

Both
1 Paul Governali 28
2 Frank Seno 14
3 Charley Conerly 12
4 Johnny Lujack 3
5 Steve Van Buren 7 HOF (Eagles, 2 titles)
6 Kenny Washington 8
7 Tommy Thompson 16 (Eagles, QB 2 titles)
8 Charley Trippi 17 HOF Cardinals - dream backfield
9 Vince Banonis 18 (Cardinals)
10 Sammy Baugh 22 HOF
11 Bob Waterfield 26 HOF
12 Pat Harder 29 Cardinals - dream backfield
13 Bulldog Turner 36 HOF (Bears)
14 Len Younce 37
15 Whitey Wistert 43 (Eagles, 2 titles)
16 Paul Christman 44 (Cardinals - dream backfield)
17 Jay Rhodemyre 45 (rookie)
18 Tony Minisi 46 (rookie)
19 Bob Mann 47
20 Mal Kutner 48
21 Frank Reagan 55
22 Robert Nussbaumer 58
23 Pete Pihos 63 HOF (Eagles, 2 titles)
24 Ted Fritsch 72
25 Tex Coulter 73
26 Joe Scott 78 (rookie)
27 Bill Dudley 80 HOF
28 Perry Moss 83 (Rookie in 48 - only NFL season)
29 John Clement 86 (47 Playoffs - QB/TB Pit)
30 Jim White 91
31 George McAfee 95 (Bears, HOF)
32 Fred Enke 98 (rookie)
33 Harry Gilmer 99 (rookie/Sammy Baugh successor?)
34 Bud Angsman 102 (Cardinals - dream backfield, 2 TDS in 47 championship game win)
35 Sid Luckman 107 (Bears, HOF)

Leaf Only
1 STEVE SUHEY 2 (Penn St., 2 yrs NFL)
2 DOAK WALKER 4 (SMU, HOF)
3 LEVI JACKSON 5 (Yale, 1st African American captain of an Ivy League team, no pro ball)
4 BOBBY LAYNE 6 (rookie, HOF)
5 BILL FISCHER 7 (ND, made all-pro in NFL)
6 TERRY BRENNAN 11 (ND, no NFL)
7 WILLIAM SWIACKI 12 (rookie in 48)
8 CHARLIE JUSTICE 15 (UNC, played in NFL, great nickname)
9 GEORGE TALIAFERRO 20 (Indiana, 1st African American drafted by NFL)
10 KEN KAVANAUGH 23 (surprised Bowman missed this one)
11 JAMES MARTIN 24 (ND, long NFL career)
12 FRED DAVIS 27
13 TOM McWILLIAMS 31 (Miss St., part of Army's famous 1945 backfield, brief NFL career)
14 LARRY ZIMMERMAN 32
15 GEORGE CONNOR 37 (rookie in 48, HOF)
16 Frank Dancewicz 38
17 BILLY DEWELL 39 (Leaf did a good job incl. reigning champion Cardinals)
18 JOHN NOLAN 40
19 HARRY SZULBORSKI 41 (Purdue, no NFL)
20 JACK JACOBS 46
21 FRANK TRIPUCKA 49 (ND, played in NFL)
22 JOHN RAUCH 50 (UGA, brief NFL career, coached)
23 MIKE DIMITRO 51 (UCLA, no NFL)
24 LEO NOMELLINI 52 (Minn, HOF)
25 CHARLES BEDNARIK 54 (Penn, HOF)
26 CHICK JAGADE 55 (Indiana, played on some great Browns teams)
27 BOB FOLSOM 56 (SMU, no NFL)
28 EUGENE ROSSIDES 57 (Columbia, law school, no NFL)
29 ART WEINER 58 (UNC, 1 yr pro ball)
30 ALEX SARKISIAN 59 (Northwestern, drafted by Eagles, no NFL record found)
31 RICHARD HARRIS 60 (Texas, no NFL record found)
32 GENE DERRICOTTE 62 (Michigan, drafted but never got to play for Browns, multiple stints in military, interesting story)
33 ROY STEINER 63 (Alabama, brief NFL career)
34 BOB HENDEREEN/Hendren 65 (USC, brief NFL career)
35 JACK CLOUD 66 (William & Mary, brief NFL career)
36 HARRELL COLLINS 67 (LSU, no NFL record found)
37 CLYDE LaFORCE 68
38 LARRY JOE 69 (Penn St., brief NFL career)
39 PHIL O'REILLY 70 (Purdue, no NFL record found)
40 PAUL CAMPBELL 71 (Texas, no NFL record found)
41 RAY EVANS 72
42 JACKIE JENSEN 73 (Cal, no NFL record found)
43 RUSS STEGER 74 (Illinois, no NFL record found)
44 CLAYTON TONNEMAKER 76 (Minn, later All-Pro)
45 GEORGE SAVITSKY 77 (rookie Eagles, included because star at Penn)
46 CLARENCE SELF 78 (Wisconsin, brief NFL career)
47 ROD FRANZ 79 (Cal, no NFL record found)
48 JIM YOUEL 80
49 BILLY BYE 81 (Wisconsin, no NFL record found)
50 FRED FOLGER 83 (Duke, no NFL record found)
51 EARL GIRARD 84 (rookie)
52 BOB DeMOSS 86 (Purdue, no NFL record found)
53 DAVE TEMPLETON 87 (tOSU, no NFL record found)
54 HERB SIEGERT 88 (Illinois, brief NFL career)
55 Bill O'Connor 89 (listed with Rams, rookie out of ND, looks like he played in AAFC)
56 JOE WHISLER 90 (tOSU, no NFL record found)
57 LEON HART 91 (ND, went on to NFL with Lions)
58 EARL BANKS 92 (Iowa, no NFL record found, coached Morgan St.)
59 FRANK ASCHENBRENNER 93 (Northwestern, some AAFC, CFL)
60 JOHN GOLDSBERRY 94 (Indiana, brief NFL career)
61 PORTER PAYNE 95 (UGA, no NFL record found)
62 PETE PERINI 96 (tOSU, brief NFL career)
63 ALFONSO DiMARCO (Iowa, no NFL record found)

Neither
Tony Canadeo
AAFC players

Bowman: 73 + 35 = 108
Leaf: 63 + 35 = 98

[LuckyLarry]

I've been chipping away at the 48 Bowman set for at least ten years, and still need 37 cards for my set. I like the fact that real photos are used!
Larry

[jefferyepayne]

Great analysis, John! I love your thought process.

I have put together both sets and the Leaf set is WAY more difficult to complete. There are a few SP's that are simply a bear to find in any condition and you will pay more than book value for them. Also some of the stars (Bednarik and Nomelini for example) are SP's and very expensive.

Note that the Leaf cards are often a bit oversized. This has led to many trimmed cards showing up in the hobby and mistakenly being given a number grade by PSA / SGC. Be very careful when buying Leafs as there are a lot of trimmed cards floating around out there.

In terms of look, I like them both for different reasons! I applaud Leaf for taking a stab at color even if the photos look like they were painted by a four year old. But I also like the classy, simple design of the 48 bowman set. Particularly when well centered! Most of mine are raw but this is one I saw in an auction and had to have.



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Larry - 1 vote for Bowman

Jeff - thanks for the compliment - I was a lurker for a long time enjoying other people's posts, so I try to pay it forward now.. I laughed when you said "painted by a four year old" - they are definitely an acquired taste - they used to look so strange to me, I guess I'm used to them now.

I'm leaning towards the Leaf set even though I really want to like the Bowman and go against the grain a bit. I hope not too many graded Leafs are trimmed. Really interesting about them being oversized. And thanks for adding a picture to the thread - can you balance it out with a Leaf scan?

One last thing I forgot to mention - the 48 Bowman Baseball cards are black and white too, but the Basketball cards are actually color - isn't that strange? I wonder if it would've put a dent in Leaf's popularity had Football been color too...

[jefferyepayne]

Sure. Here's one of the tough SPs.



jeff

[Myachelydra]

John,

I have always been a fan of the Bowman set based on its simplicity of design. For what they lack in pizzaz they make up with the information on the reverse...just more substance than Leaf.

I have put together sets or provided singles for a number of customers; there are definitely more Leaf collectors from my experience than Bowman.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Jeff, thanks for the scan.

John, thanks for jumping in. Not surprised to hear Leaf is more popular. Funny you mention the reverse - I really enjoy reading those too and while I do agree with you overall - there was one thing I liked about the Leaf write ups. The Trippi and Angsman cards actually mention the 47 title game. I'm sure the hype was nowhere near the modern day SB, but I thought it was kind of cool that Leaf felt it was important enough to mention.

[TanksAndSpartans]

If I take a shot at 48 Leaf, I think I better go low grade - http://www.milehighcardco.com/Exceed...-LOT35469.aspx

Final Price = $176,298.93

It wouldn't be fun to me not to collect it gradually anyway

[BigDaddyBowman]

If you decide to start building the 48 Bowman football set, I am selling off my collection and have about 2/3 of the set graded in SGC available. I would be willing to talk about the entire lot if you have interest. I have all the stars/HOFers and most of the commons. You can check out my 48 Bowman set on the SGC registry. Let me know if interested.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by DezHood

If I take a shot at 48 Leaf, I think I better go low grade - http://www.milehighcardco.com/Exceed...-LOT35469.aspx

Final Price = $176,298.93

It wouldn't be fun to me not to collect it gradually anyway

Best part? That 176k set was trimmed so badly it should have been bought by Joey O. Embarrassing

I collect both sets and love them both, like asking which kid you love more
The leafs are easy to trim and a flood of them have gotten by PSA so educate yourself before you collect

[TanksAndSpartans]

Hi Publius - I've seen your name on the PSA registry and I think someone said you host the gridiron greats podcast. Thanks for jumping in.

So how can you tell that recently auctioned set was trimmed? Can you show some examples from that set or others in PSA holders?

[Publius]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Hi Publius - I've seen your name on the PSA registry and I think someone said you host the gridiron greats podcast. Thanks for jumping in.

So how can you tell that recently auctioned set was trimmed? Can you show some examples from that set or others in PSA holders?

Dez, the ambassador of football Bob Swick hosted the show, I was the assistant / sidekick. . I had the best seat in the house talking football to the Captain every other week

Of all the sets, I think 48 Leaf is the one I've studied the most. My wife used to call it "catch and release". I would measure every raw and graded leaf card I got, track it on a spreadsheet. I began to see what the normal dimensions of the card was, as the measurements are all over the board, and what was considered trimmed. Soaked em, dried them in books, etc. after awhile you begin to be able to see what's trimmed or at least suspect at a glance, and the majority of the hi end cards in that 200k set are suspect.

I would want to see them in person and measure them, but they look bad, which is bad for the hobby as the people who know, don't bid on trimmed cards. The people who don't know, win them for a deal, VCP tracks it and it dilutes the value of the untrimmed cards

For all that I do know, there's a fella named Scott Alpaugh who teaches me something about the set every time we wrestle in a hotel lobby.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Publius

For all that I do know, there's a fella named Scott Alpaugh who teaches me something about the set every time we wrestle in a hotel lobby.

Scott is the man when it comes to the '48 Leaf set. Calling Scott ... where are you Scott?

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff and Publius. Sounds like detecting the trimmed cards is more complicated than I thought... I actually won 2 cards (hopefully not trimmed) at auction Sunday night, so I guess I'm hooked.... (I already had a handful of low and mid grade cards of a few of the HOFers).

And while we wait for Scott to jump in.... What's going on with the Podcasts? I've never managed to catch one - on hold now?

[tedzan]

John W......very nice introductory post here.


I like both the 1948 LEAF and 1948 BOWMAN sets, but I prefer the BOWMAN. I completed 2 - 1948 Bowman FB sets back in the early 1980's.

I also had all 3 uncut 36-card sheets of this set.

This set was somewhat of a mystery back in the 1970's, and the early 1980's........especially due to the rarity of the "DIVISIBLE by 3" cards.

So, I wrote an article that resolved this mystery, and it was published in SCD in 1984..










TED Z
.

[jefferyepayne]

Very nice detective work back then, Ted! Impressive piece of work.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Ted. Great article! I actually came across this blast from the past doing my research for the post: http://www.network54.com/Forum/57939...OWMAN+FB+cards

I have to ask, when you were buying the 48 cards, did you leave the Leaf packs on the shelf? (I recall leaving Fleer packs on the shelf in the 80s - can't buy everything).

[oddball]

Awesome article! I didn't subscribe to SCD until 1985, so I had never seen this. Thanks for posting!

[tedzan]

Thanks Jeff....John....Ty....for the nice compliments.

John, to your question......
"I have to ask, when you were buying the 48 cards, did you leave the Leaf packs on the shelf ?"


In my neighborhood in 1948, the LEAF Gum cards were Pirates and Boxing. Lots of them, but very few FB cards.

Early in the Spring of 1949, LEAF BB cards were available (tons of these cards). Followed by LEAF FB in the Fall.

Also in 1948, BOWMAN cards were plentiful in my neighborhood....Movie Stars, BB, Basket Ball, and FB (with the
exception of the "divide by 3" cards).

When I recovered my original collection from my youth (from my folks home in 1977), all of this became evident.



TED Z
.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Ted. I hadn't considered the Leaf FB cards may not be available. It's pretty cool to have you as a resource on 48B. The part on how you were only 35 cards short and not 36 was great. You mentioned Basketball.... Any theory why only that one was color? If the order was football,basketball, baseball, I wouldn't have expected them to go back to b/w for baseball......

I know it's off topic, but I'd love to find someone with firsthand or at least second knowledge on the 35 Chicle set too. I've heard theories about the high numbers (regional, etc.), but it's not the same as someone opening packs.

[tedzan]

I would guess that the 1948 Bowman Basket Ball cards were printed in color in late '48 as a precursor to their 1949 color BB set cards.
'

TED Z
.

[LuckyLarry]

Thanks Ted, I knew of the "divisible by 3" short prints, but your article really explains what it is all about. I've been chipping away at the 1948 Bowman football set for over ten years, and still need 35 cards. Of the cards I still need, 23 of them are "divisible by 3" short prints.
Larry

[clamendo]

Does anyone collect the 1948 Bowman or 1948 leaf premiums? I.e Read the Back of the card! It's always nice to have some companion pieces to your set. John I thought you'd like to see the Steelers premium.

y

I wonder if the guy who bought the 48 leaf set has any : )

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Carl. I like the Leaf pennants! The Bowman premiums have a bit of "Cracker Jack" prize feel.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Does anyone collect the 1948 Bowman or 1948 leaf premiums? I.e Read the Back of the card! It's always nice to have some companion pieces to your set. John I thought you'd like to see the Steelers premium.

I've tried to pick some of these up but usually get outbid. Maybe it's been you, Carl! Made a run at the Bowman ring a while back and was the under bidder.

jeff

[clamendo]

I got it from a Hakes auction and it wasn't cheap


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[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

I got it from a Hakes auction and it wasn't cheap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I ran you up on that

jeff

[clamendo]

Ouch!


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[Publius]

I dig that ring Carl, I've never seen one.

Leaf pennants are cool too

[clamendo]

I may know someone who has one that maybe willing to part with it


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[Footballdude]

For those who collect the Leaf sets, regarding trimmed cards, is it any safer to buy mid-grade cards?

[clamendo]

Nicely centered em/nm with little honest corner wear is a good way to go. In fact, I'll bet if you cracked out ten "8" cards and resubmitted you have a 0% chance of getting ten "8"s back


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[TanksAndSpartans]

Some interesting results tonight.... 2 mid-grade examples of one of the only two high numbered HOFers sold tonight. Interestingly, the 5 went higher than the 6, and both went a little low from the historicals I looked up. Do people think these may have gone low because there was a feeling they were trimmed? I do think the 5 was better centered than the 6, but still surprised by the results as people do care about registry ranking and the 6 didn't look bad to me. Thanks for any thoughts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Fo...vip=true&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Fo...OIBUAA:US:1120

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Some interesting results tonight.... 2 mid-grade examples of one of the only two high numbered HOFers sold tonight. Interestingly, the 5 went higher than the 6, and both went a little low from the historicals I looked up. Do people think these may have gone low because there was a feeling they were trimmed? I do think the 5 was better centered than the 6, but still surprised by the results as people do care about registry ranking and the 6 didn't look bad to me. Thanks for any thoughts.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Fo...vip=true&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-Fo...OIBUAA:US:1120

I was tracking those as well to see what would happen. To me, the results say a couple of things:

1. There have been a couple of "registry collectors" driving up HOF rookie prices bidding against each other. The results of these bidding wars are NOT indicative of the value of these cards overall. The prices for the cards sold last night are more in line with what I would expect.

2. The fact that the EX card (which I preferred as well) went for more than the EX/NM further supports #1. Those bidding on these cards were not looking at just the slab (for registry purposes) but instead the quality of the card and to me, the EX looks much better than the EX/NM so the bidders made the right call.

My 2 cents on it.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

That Jeff - that makes perfect sense - glad not to see the word "trimmed" in your reply. It really shows timing is everything - I can't imagine 2 Bednariks going that cheap, but I also think Bednarik is more condition sensitive.

On a side note, I won a Doak Walker in that auction - I decided to slowly go for the 48 Leaf set in low grade. Here is a link to my progress: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistr....aspx?s=180903

[TanksAndSpartans]

A bunch of these auctions ending soon, mostly in high grade.... How many of them are ok? After reading this thread and seeing all the extra space in some of the cases, it's hard for me to feel good about them: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141688373492

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

A bunch of these auctions ending soon, mostly in high grade.... How many of them are ok? After reading this thread and seeing all the extra space in some of the cases, it's hard for me to feel good about them: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141688373492

The case size is the case size so if some of them have extra space between the card and the case edge, I would avoid them completely. Too many trimmed Leafs to take a chance if they look short.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Jeff - I find this more discouraging than ever recently. I understand it's not realistic to hold a TPG to that high of a standard - it is a business after all rather than an entity based on altruistically helping a fellow collector, but if they can't weed out trimmed cards, it's very disappointing. I wonder how many high grade Chicles are trimmed. Given the year issued, the marginal popularity of football, the fact that every card touched a stick of gum and thus I wouldn't expect unopened to be in great shape, etc. has me thinking there may be more cards with sharp corners out there than can logically be explained.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DezHood

Thanks Jeff - I find this more discouraging than ever recently. I understand it's not realistic to hold a TPG to that high of a standard - it is a business after all rather than an entity based on altruistically helping a fellow collector, but if they can't weed out trimmed cards, it's very disappointing. I wonder how many high grade Chicles are trimmed. Given the year issued, the marginal popularity of football, the fact that every card touched a stick of gum and thus I wouldn't expect unopened to be in great shape, etc. has me thinking there may be more cards with sharp corners out there than can logically be explained.

Finding trimmed cards is not an exact science as some sets vary in size enough that you can't base it just on dimensions. If you examine the edges closely you can *sometimes* see differences in the edge cut or an edge with a whiter color than the others that can point toward trimming. Leafs are particularly tough because they can be oversized, allowing a card doctor to trim them and not come even close to the minimum dimensions allowed so the edges are possibly never even checked closely by some TPGs.

I don't believe Chicles have the same issue as Leafs but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of undersized, trimmed Chicles out there.

jeff

[Publius]

Originally Posted by DezHood

A bunch of these auctions ending soon, mostly in high grade.... How many of them are ok? After reading this thread and seeing all the extra space in some of the cases, it's hard for me to feel good about them: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141688373492

This thread was fun to re read.

I win three cards in that Leaf auction I thought looked good, but there were a few that were definitely trimmed and holdered.
Like Jeff said the leafs are more likely trimmed than Chicles, but they're out there, even in mid grade. I think we had a thread once about what the price break on a card was to warrant someone working on it, and $20 was mentioned. It's worth so,wines time to trim or work on a card to make $15 ( after purchase and grading). Oh well

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Joe and Jeff. Appreciate the replies - makes me feel a little better.

Joe, are you going to analyze those 3 Leafs further once you have them in hand? I'd be interested in knowing your process and whether they passed/failed.

[TanksAndSpartans]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, thanks to Joe, the issue with doctored 48 Leaf football cards is now published. The Winter 2015 issue of GridIron Greats includes an article titled "The 1948 Leaf Set and Its Love Affair with Card Doctors".

One thing I had believed with regard to PSA holdering and now I'm questioning is I thought PSA had holders for each set which would mean any graded small card would be visible from excess room in the holder and may even have a mylar to hold it in place. With the amount of variation in this set, I'm wondering if different sized holders are used. When I refer to size, (I think for cards, the holders are the same size with exceptions like Tall Boys, etc.), so what I mean is the amount of real estate within the holder for the card itself.

Finally, I hope the TPG companies read this! I wonder to what extent if any this has ever been on their radar. Leaf also had boxing and baseball cards - also wondering if sizing was an issue for their other sets.

[Beansballcardblog]

Originally Posted by DezHood

For anyone who hasn't seen it, thanks to Joe, the issue with doctored 48 Leaf football cards is now published. The Winter 2015 issue of GridIron Greats includes an article titled "The 1948 Leaf Set and Its Love Affair with Card Doctors".

One thing I had believed with regard to PSA holdering and now I'm questioning is I thought PSA had holders for each set which would mean any graded small card would be visible from excess room in the holder and may even have a mylar to hold it in place. With the amount of variation in this set, I'm wondering if different sized holders are used. When I refer to size, I think for cards the holders are the same size, so what I mean ids the amount of real estate within the holder for the card itself.

Finally, I hope the TPG companies read this! I wonder to what extent if any this has ever been on their radar. Leaf also had boxing and baseball cards - also wondering if sizing was an issue for their other sets.

Can't wait to read it. I ordered my copy on Tuesday!

[jefferyepayne]

Yes. Great, great article by Joe. Card doctors beware. Collectors are figuring out how to detect your work. Everybody should read this article!

jeff

[OTWCards]

1948 Leaf? Doctored cards? Wrestling matches in hotel lobbies? What have I missed and why wasn't the Bat Signal activated.

I need to renew my GG subscription and read Joe's article...

Oh, and just because I don't want to come to the party empty-handed . . .