Cheatriots At It Again....

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by steve B

I mentioned an article in the other thread, and can't find it. But there's a newer one with more detail.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footbal...ls_for_af.html

The important bit.....

"ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots footballs were tested during halftme, re-inflated after when they were found to be under-inflated, then the balls put back in play for the second half and then tested again after the game. "



So a 10 point lead with the underinflated balls and 28-0 for the second half using properly inflated balls.
Hint, if your team scores a whole 7 points in the game and allows 28 unanswered points in the second half the problem isn't the balls. (Maybe start with an inability to stop the run...)

Steve B

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

[DHogan]

I'm from Massachusetts. I don't like the Patriots. I guess I'm a horrible person.

[itjclarke]

Not being a Pats apologist here... but I think it's silly the league and media are making such a big deal about this. I'd be nearly certain that teams have been doing this regularly for decades and no one cared (until now). If one QB liked to throw a slightly deflated ball, he'd do that... if one preferred to throw a fully inflated ball, he'd do that (Aaron Rodgers prefers this). If wet or cold conditions made the ball more slick, you could let some air out.. just like you'd put on longer cleats to play in mud. When I was in HS, it was regular to practice with worn out, highly inflated balls, then play games with nice new, lesser inflated balls (almost as a reward).

To the argument all balls need to be exactly the same-- On every other level, a team choses their game ball, brand, spec, etc, and these balls can vary quite a bit. There used to the fatter Wilson 1001 ball, and a thinner 1005 "passing ball". You'd see both of these being used as game balls in college/HS based on a team's preference. Different brand balls are different too...Nike balls may have a slightly different feel than Rawlings or Wilson... balls with painted white stripes feel different than those with sown in white stripes, which provide better grip.

At some point the NFL decided to micromanage this.. I think this is relatively recent, probably around the same time they decided to use the "K" ball for special teams. Meanwhile they've made their ball fatter and fatter over the years (though I'm sure it's probably claimed the spec's the same).

I understand that "rules are rules", but that doesn't mean some aren't more chickensh*t than others. To me Deflate-gate is in the same realm as the pine tar incident.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by pgellis

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

It is against the rules, but I think it's an area where the rules are perhaps a bit over the top. And from the comments of players from other teams especially quarterbacks it looks like a rule that's regularly ignored. Nobody seems to be calling for the heads of anyone on the Packers when their QB has stated he has them overinflate the game balls for him. And nearly all QBs have the balls scuffed a certain way.

On the technical end, I'd like to see what sort of setup they're using to inflate and test. I worked with gauges a lot in hydraulics, and depending on the type their accuracy can be pretty suspect. Most are less accurate at the ends of the range, pretty decent ones are 3% at the top and bottom of the range, and 2% in the middle. So if they're using a decent 0-25 psi guage the readings should all be very accurate. But if they're using a gauge with a bigger range that's cheaper - like a bicycle pump with a built in guage- the reading could easily be off. And if the refs check with the same guage so they don't have to bring their own they'll get the same wrong result. Checking with a proper setup after a complaint will show all the supposedly correct readings to be wrong.
The little tire gauges that come from Wal-Mart etc are nowhere near accurate enough.

The NFL must be loving the extra publicity. And in the end what I think will happen is a fine, the rules call for 25 thousand, and they'll probably multiply that times 11 to fine for each ball as it's own infraction.

They should change the rules to have the league supply the balls, or find a way to add something like a tamper proof sticker over the valve that the refs would apply. A tampered sticker could then be reported by the refs and the fining could be done quickly.
Or to get a bit crazy, there's enough technology that it should be possible to make a self inflating ball that would adjust for different temperatures.

I can't say I blame the Colts for reporting it. Any rules infraction that you can get your opponent busted for is something to consider especially at playoff time. Right now the Pats are big targets, just like the Yankees have been in baseball. They're good enough that everyone wants an edge, and will report stuff that they wouldn't report another team for. Usually the commonly broken rules are let slide because every team is doing something that's either against the rules or falls into a gray area. And if you report the other team, they just might report what ever you're doing.

Steve B

[pgellis]

Here's the difference with Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers has admitted that he likes over-inflated balls, but when they are brought to the officials and they take some air out of them, he doesn't have someone go back to the balls before kickoff and re-inflate them.

What's being thrown at the Deflatriots is that the balls were checked and were deemed legal, then between that check and half-time, someone deflated 11 out of 12 balls.

And to put possible blame on the instruments being used is a joke. If those "bad" instruments were used to measure the Colts balls too, how come those didn't show under-inflation? How do 11 out of 12 balls basically measure exactly the same? Coincidence? No.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by pgellis

Here's the difference with Rodgers and Brady. Rodgers has admitted that he likes over-inflated balls, but when they are brought to the officials and they take some air out of them, he doesn't have someone go back to the balls before kickoff and re-inflate them.

What's being thrown at the Deflatriots is that the balls were checked and were deemed legal, then between that check and half-time, someone deflated 11 out of 12 balls.

And to put possible blame on the instruments being used is a joke. If those "bad" instruments were used to measure the Colts balls too, how come those didn't show under-inflation? How do 11 out of 12 balls basically measure exactly the same? Coincidence? No.

No, it's hardly a joke. It would be if proper equipment and process was used, but we don't know that. Considering the information in this article I'd have to wonder if ANY equipment or process was used before the game.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sup...tballs-n290801

From the above
"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

Yeah, handling the game balls and squeezing them. There's no way anyone gets that right within +- .5 psi.

Then go back to HS science class. Remember the gas laws? You know, the ones that relate temperature to pressure?

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/weather/2...roll/22065861/

"83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside."

There's most of the supposed 2 psi difference.

2% error on a decent 0-25psi guage is ---- .5 psi. And on the low end of the range the error is almost always to read low.

Total change+total error = 1.2 psi.

If the guage wasn't 0-25, but 0-100 the error on the end of the range is 3% making the difference more like 1.5 psi.

The claim is 2 psi under. Media rounding? or an actual measurement. And if the gauges the refs used were 0-100 then the markings aren't usually every psi, but every 5. Seeing the difference between 11 and 10.5 isn't easy especially if you're in a hurry - like if all you've got is halftime and you still have your normal work as well.

If they use better stuff? Yeah, there's a problem with 2 psi, and the .7 from the temperature difference should have been added. But we're not hearing about what accuracy they have available. Just the hand wringing over an accusation.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

No, it's hardly a joke. It would be if proper equipment and process was used, but we don't know that. Considering the information in this article I'd have to wonder if ANY equipment or process was used before the game.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sup...tballs-n290801

From the above
"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

Yeah, handling the game balls and squeezing them. There's no way anyone gets that right within +- .5 psi.

Then go back to HS science class. Remember the gas laws? You know, the ones that relate temperature to pressure?

http://www.wcsh6.com/story/weather/2...roll/22065861/

"83,244.6 Pa is 11.8 psi, so, according to these calculations, the balls could have been under-inflated by 0.7 psi on the field, just due to the change in temperature from inside to outside."

There's most of the supposed 2 psi difference.

2% error on a decent 0-25psi guage is ---- .5 psi. And on the low end of the range the error is almost always to read low.

Total change+total error = 1.2 psi.

If the guage wasn't 0-25, but 0-100 the error on the end of the range is 3% making the difference more like 1.5 psi.

The claim is 2 psi under. Media rounding? or an actual measurement. And if the gauges the refs used were 0-100 then the markings aren't usually every psi, but every 5. Seeing the difference between 11 and 10.5 isn't easy especially if you're in a hurry - like if all you've got is halftime and you still have your normal work as well.

If they use better stuff? Yeah, there's a problem with 2 psi, and the .7 from the temperature difference should have been added. But we're not hearing about what accuracy they have available. Just the hand wringing over an accusation.

Steve B

Steve, no offense but I suspect most of your guesses about the gauges used (and whether or not the balls were instead squeezed) is wrong.

Since this is a discussion forum, I'm going to guess that the gauges were accurate and that they were used by the referees. I'm sure that will come out after the Superbowl, but that's my 'guess' for now. This would not be a big deal if it was easily explained away, and according to every other former quarterback who has been questioned, this actually IS a big deal and a violation of the rules that quarterbacks do NOT normally perform.

Roughing up balls is legal, deflating them after they have been approved by the refs, is not legal. Yes, everyone roughs up balls. No, everyone does not deflate them. Perhaps more teams deflate them than just the Patriots, but we haven't yet heard from anyone who knows that to be true.

The ball are created to NOT deflate during games, regardless of weather and temperature conditions. If you were flying them on airplanes, you might have issues, but they are checked just before the game.

Perhaps we will find one of the following occurred, but I'm guessing it will be the last point:

• the Patriots used 11 balls that were flawed and lost air, despite the fact that they were designed not to.
• the referees did not use a guage, but just 'squeezed' the balls
• the referees used a guage that had a margin of error that made any measurements a joke
• the equipment manager knew that Brady liked his balls a bit below 12.5, and so let some air out, hoping no one would notice.

[pgellis]

The Deflatriot apologists need to do a little reading or listen to the radio for a bit before coming up with some idiotic excuses.
Start with this:
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflat...per-bowl-xlix/

Read the official NFL statement released this afternoon.

Basically the NFL is stating that all the balls were properly tested before the game, then at half-time and then again after the game. The only inconsistency was with the Pats balls from before kickoff to half-time. That meant some person let air out of those 11 (maybe all 12) balls.

The Pats balls didn't deflate at all during the 2nd half, when the temperature drop was more dramatic, so please stop talking about the temperature.

Your coach is a cheater and now your beloved quarterback will be proven not only a liar, but also a cheater.

Shady Brady should be suspended for the Super Bowl, but we all know that won't happen...what a shame.

[nolemmings]

Much ado about nothing--just another excuse for the jealous Patriot haters to rally around once again because of 15 straight yrs of success.

It's my birthday and I admit I am at least half in the bag, but you can stick that completely up your ass.

[nolemmings]

Brian Billick was just on Mike and Mike and led off his comments by adamantly denying (and being slightly incensed by) the notion that everybody does this. He says that everyone does scuff up the balls to their liking, mostly so as to take off a layer of lacquer that comes with new footballs, but that the inflation rules are there for a reason. Given that the balls are checked by the ref and there is only a limited time for them to be altered, I suspect the league does take it seriously--why have the refs undertake a meaningless act?

[pgellis]

Here you go:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/...hly/vi-AA8roRM

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pgellis

Steve,
The argument isn't who was the better team. What balls were used in the 2nd half. The pointy is that the balls were checked pre-game and deemed compliant. So, between that measurement that happens 2 hours and 15 minutes prior to kickoff and half-time, somebody deflated those balls. That is cheating.
The argument has nothing to do with the 2nd half at all.

Belicheck implied that the Patriots start off with 12.5 balls (extreme low end), and that they deflated for some reason unknown to him, but that in the future he would start them at 13.3 (I believe that was the number) to account for a margin of error. If the Pats start off at the low end (12.5), it's obvious they know that Brady likes them under-inflated. And with Belichek's attention to detail, I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of a required range and that he didn't approve the 12.5 number. Given that, he had to know how the process for handling the balls, although he denied any knowledge of that process.

If he lied in today's press conference, he's screwed - someone (former player, equipment manager, etc) will remember some detail from the past that will burn him.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Belicheck implied that the Patriots start off with 12.5 balls (extreme low end), and that they deflated for some reason unknown to him, but that in the future he would start them at 13.3 (I believe that was the number) to account for a margin of error. If the Pats start off at the low end (12.5), it's obvious they know that Brady likes them under-inflated. And with Belichek's attention to detail, I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of a required range and that he didn't approve the 12.5 number. Given that, he had to know how the process for handling the balls, although he denied any knowledge of that process.

If he lied in today's press conference, he's screwed - someone (former player, equipment manager, etc) will remember some detail from the past that will burn him.

He knows about the process for handling the balls......gimme a break. He knows every letter in the operations manual.

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by pgellis

He knows about the process for handling the balls......gimme a break. He knows every letter in the operations manual.

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

I guarantee you Belicheck talked with Brady about this. He would have asked Brady (if he didn't already know the answer): "Do you have the equipment manager or anyone else deflate the balls?" If no hanky-panky went on, Belicheck would have said as much. He would have simply said: "We do nothing to the balls after the officials checked them." He knows the answer.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pgellis

How did the balls (all 12) deflate without any reasonable explanation? It was 51 degrees at kickoff. It can't be weather because the Colts balls didn't deflate. Obviously they deflated and the only explanation is human intervention.

Maybe it was colder on the Patriots sideline than it was the Colts

[HRBAKER]

Or maybe the Patriots figured out how to overinflate the Colts balls. It's a lot of fun to watch when the team that is so easy to hate gives the haters even more reason to get agitated.

[Runscott]

Most believable analysis of the two press conferences is that Belichek threw Brady under the bus and Brady then threw his equipment manager under the bus. Shit flows downhill for sure.

Meanwhile, the Pats players are all talking the Belichek mantra, but things will come out as players change teams. Back-up QB Jimmy Garoppolo would be the logical first one to talk, as soon as he leaves the team....guessing he sees a fat raise over the off-season.

[itjclarke]

This is so stupid. I don't care what Mike Pereria, or Billick say. If the league had been at all serious about enforcement, they would simply have supply game balls to both teams during the course of a game, not prior... however they don't and never have. In turn QBs have always had the opportunity to customize balls per their wants, and have.

As said before, on any/all other levels of football, each team plays with their own chosen game balls (which can vary considerably)... and players/coaches are allowed to choose the balls that best suit them. For the NFL to make this a big deal now is a joke. The league and press are latching onto this story because it draws more attention to the SB... and frankly draws attention away from some of the other shortcomings of Goodell and the league.