Ruth and Gehrig Balls - Authentic?

[RichardSimon]

Ralph has a son named Mark, he charmed us over at Autograph Magazine Live with unrelenting, totally ineffective, attacks on Chris.

[VAYankee]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

This is a fun cross thread....

http://live.autographmagazine.com/ph...ource=activity

Ingber has admittedly never been that kind of a jerk to me, although condescension is a key character trait of his. Tries to make you feel like your idiot because you won't hand over $5k for whatever he's trying to sell. Everything from JDE should be accepted. I loved this email that I got from him on Saturday morning when I wouldn't buy the Ruth ball....

I remember you told me you once got burned before on a purchase. Now I believe, unless these guys like Ruth and Gehrig either tell you they actually signed the bb, or left behind an affidavit before they died that they did so, you are not going to be comfortable. It certainly is your prerogative, but in the business we refer to it as “paralysis by analysis.”


I called it being careful or judicious.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

Ingber has admittedly never been that kind of a jerk to me, although condescension is a key character trait of his. Tries to make you feel like your idiot because you won't hand over $5k for whatever he's trying to sell. Everything from JDE should be accepted. I loved this email that I got from him on Saturday morning when I wouldn't buy the Ruth ball....

I remember you told me you once got burned before on a purchase. Now I believe, unless these guys like Ruth and Gehrig either tell you they actually signed the bb, or left behind an affidavit before they died that they did so, you are not going to be comfortable. It certainly is your prerogative, but in the business we refer to it as “paralysis by analysis.”


I called it being careful or judicious.

I called it bullsh--.

[VAYankee]

Does anyone think the authorities would care to look at the stuff they're peddling? I have an old friend that I believe still works at the Bureau, might be worth a shot. Thoughts?

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

Does anyone think the authorities would care to look at the stuff they're peddling? I have an old friend that I believe still works at the Bureau, might be worth a shot. Thoughts?

Give it a shot...Someone has to do something to shut these guys down...They make fools of honest collectors and nothing is done to them.

[VAYankee]

JDE just sent out the attached cert...they signed this one, sorry, got Barry Halper to sign this one from the grave.

[Maddog]

This crap is why I will only buy from a small handful of dealers. Even then I will question if something doesn't look right, but at least I have some faith in the source.

[ruth-gehrig]

Perhaps the Halper family would like to go after this source??

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

Does anyone think the authorities would care to look at the stuff they're peddling? I have an old friend that I believe still works at the Bureau, might be worth a shot. Thoughts?

LE reaction is very erratic, it just depends on the individual you are talking to. It never hurts to try.

[pscolgrafs]

My favorite subject 'the Coach'.

If you are serious about learning about autographs; a must is to own this book:

I will through four separate thread additions (because I can't figure out how to manage the scans in the proper order) will show you items from the last handful (that's right, five months) of Coach's Corner Sports Auctions with the final prices realized which in itself tell you what you need to know about this company.

These people have been doing this for over 300 auctions.

Enjoy!

[pscolgrafs]

Josh Gibson:

The one "authenticated" by Barry Halper is at the top.

Here is what is said about Josh Gibson in the "Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs Book" by Ron Keurajian:

The population of genuine speciments is likely between 10 and 20. Just about all Gibson material is in document form. I know of only one signed baseball, a team baseball of the Homestead Grays from either 1945 or 1946.

In closing: CCSA have sold hundreds and hundreds of Josh Gibson signed items and they usually sell for several hundred dollars. What is the value of a Gibson signature? In 2007, Lelands sold a 1939 contract for $32,862. A single signed baseball would most likely today sell for more than that. Possible $50,000. And look at these prices, folks.

[pscolgrafs]

Mickey Welch:

The one on top was "authenticated" by Barry Halper, and the second one is also be offered for auction this month.

Here is what is said about Mickey Welch in the "Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs Book" by Ron Keurajian:

I have never seen a genuinely signed photo, baseball, government postcard, or other non-document signed item. I estimate the market population of Welch signatures to be under five specimens.

In closing:

How much would an authentic Mickey Welch sell for? According to the book: Due to rarity, there have been no recent sales of Welch's signature. Would it be far fetched for a single signed ball to fetch $30,000 or more? Please note that it says in the description on the "Halper' one.:

This vintage, well used ball may be official, and comes black ink signed and dated by the late HOF'er from 1939. It was signed right across the sweet spot, shows off well from 12 feet away, and value with rhe included Barry Halper COA is thousands, IF you can find one.

"IF" you can find one. YOU HAVE TWO IN THIS AUCTION!!!!!

[pscolgrafs]

Jack Chesbro:

Here is what is said about Jack Chesbro in the "Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs Book" by Ron Keurajian:

The only paper specimen I know of in the open market is a signed bank check.

How much would an authentic Jack Chesbro sell for? Legendary just sold a signed check for $23,000.Would it be far fetched for a single signed ball to fetch $30,000 or more?

Actually Lee and Scott noted that the value is around $35,000, and what was the final price? $73.

They don't have on in this auction. Maybe next month.

You guys get the idea, and I could do this all day! :-0

[pscolgrafs]

This is one of my favorites. Kind of like ordering a cake over the phone:

"Hello"
"Yes, I would like to make an order." says the women.
"Okay, what would you like?"
"I would like to order an autographed Babe Ruth baseball."
"That is our best seller. Would you like to add an inscription or personalization? Home Run King? Date of the year of the shot? Great Bambino? George Herman Ruth? Lover of Easy Women? Babe Ruth #714? I Didn't Mean To Eat All Of Those Hot Dogs? There
is a slight surcharge."
"No thank you."
"Would you like to add another signature? We offer a discount for multiple signatures added.
We can add anyone within their lifetime. Lou Gehrig is very popular, but we will add anyone."
"Wait, my son loves math, can you add Albert Einstein below the Ruth signature?"
"We can do that. Anything else?"
"Can Einstein add E=MC2?"
"No problem."
"And can you get Babe to sign it "Hitting=Homers2? I think he will love it!"
"I think he will. We have never done a ball like this. This is very unique and truly one of a kind. Anything else? We offer a free dating service if interested."
"I'm flattered, but I am married"
"No, we date the balls with specific dates. It's our calling card. Like a grandfather's date of birth or the date the Titanic sank or something like that. It tells the customers that the item could have been signed that day, unlike balls that are not dated which may appear suspicious to collectors."
She thinks about this for a minute.
"When is grand papa's birthday?" she screams into another room.
"January 8, 1938'
"Great! He will love it! Anything else?"
"No, I think that will be all."
"It will be ready by Wednesday if you want to pick it up."
"Great, see you there!"

[Runscott]

I don't think anyone here doubts that coaches corner sells fakes.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by pscolgrafs

This is one of my favorites. Kind of like ordering a cake over the phone:

"Hello"
"Yes, I would like to make an order." says the women.
"Okay, what would you like?"
"I would like to order an autographed Babe Ruth baseball."
"That is our best seller. Would you like to add an inscription or personalization? Home Run King? Date of the year of the shot? Great Bambino? George Herman Ruth? Lover of Easy Women? Babe Ruth #714? I Didn't Mean To Eat All Of Those Hot Dogs? There
is a slight surcharge."
"No thank you."
"Would you like to add another signature? We offer a discount for multiple signatures added.
We can add anyone within their lifetime. Lou Gehrig is very popular, but we will add anyone."
"Wait, my son loves math, can you add Albert Einstein below the Ruth signature?"
"We can do that. Anything else?"
"Can Einstein add E=MC2?"
"No problem."
"And can you get Babe to sign it "Hitting=Homers2? I think he will love it!"
"I think he will. We have never done a ball like this. This is very unique and truly one of a kind. Anything else? We offer a free dating service if interested."
"I'm flattered, but I am married"
"No, we date the balls with specific dates. It's our calling card. Like a grandfather's date of birth or the date the Titanic sank or something like that. It tells the customers that the item could have been signed that day, unlike balls that are not dated which may appear suspicious to collectors."
She thinks about this for a minute.
"When is grand papa's birthday?" she screams into another room.
"January 8, 1938'
"Great! He will love it! Anything else?"
"No, I think that will be all."
"It will be ready by Wednesday if you want to pick it up."
"Great, see you there!"

That's both incredibly sad and hysterically funny at the same time.
I have to admit that I almost spit out my sip of coffee while reading your post.

[tinkereversandme]

One of the funniest things I have read in a long time. Great job Pscol! I suppose a large majority of the people here are in the know but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone knows and it should not be assumed even if it protects one possible buyer from making a mistake. I am sure some sort of law enforcement has been notified of this or read this forum and it gives them a start. I personally find these Coach's Corner threads amusing and they often get attacked but honestly in searches they come up and there is some hope for me at least that justice will be served. Honestly, when it comes to this business you really have to ask yourself what the purpose was of those busts if they would ignore this collecting sector for the future. I realize the world has problems and resources are not available to focus on forgers and distributors but it is still a crime and this is a problem and by viewing the above, how can you ignore this anymore? This thread is great but I think I can point a view eye balls in the direction of someone who may care about this and essentially all you need to do is find one guy who is as outraged as we all are. Great work Pscol!

Regards,

Larry

[VAYankee]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

That's both incredibly sad and hysterically funny at the same time.
I have to admit that I almost spit out my sip of coffee while reading your post.

Reading through the pretend dialogue was funny enough, it's when I saw the picture that followed was when I lost it!!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

That's both incredibly sad and hysterically funny at the same time.
I have to admit that I almost spit out my sip of coffee while reading your post.

He is a funny boy.
.

[VAYankee]

So I'm curious as to who people believe is/are the best auction house(s). Heritage I'd assume is one, Lelands? SCP? Hunt? Legendary? RR? Grey Flannel?

[Klrdds]

I have bought and buy from those AHs you listed and others as well. I believe that people develop AH loyalty as they develop dealer loyalty for the most part . I believe it becomes personal preference in most cases. Obviously product selection, specialty offerings , fast shipping, conflict resolution, and buyer's premium also are in the mix, as well as the important one of reputation ( no shill bidding, etc...).

[VAYankee]

Any thoughts about outfits like Huggins and Scott? I noticed they posted on this forum about their upcoming auction.

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

So I'm curious as to who people believe is/are the best auction house(s). Heritage I'd assume is one, Lelands? SCP? Hunt? Legendary? RR? Grey Flannel?

I've dealt with SCP and Hunt and always had good results

[VAYankee]

So I started sending the emails from JDE to a special folder, and it's amazing how much stuff these guys are peddling. Over the weekend, I asked how did this consignor come to acquire so many balls from Halper - this was a classic response, "Ralph did talk to the seller of these bb’s. Seller did not acquire these bb’s thru an auction, according to Ralph. The current owner of these bb’s acquired them in lieu of money Halper brothers owed him. Ralph has known this seller for decades, and in fact this guy worked for Yankees eons ago. No reason, nor any kind of indication, this guy isn’t telling Ralph the truth."

So despite the Halper family business, which is still in existence today, owed this guy so money that he gave him all of these balls, which if authentic would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Good thing he gave them with COAs too.

Here are the latest balls, the first one is also out on CCA.

[earlywynnfan]

At any point of these conversations have you ever said "But why are they currently in Coach's Corner auctions?"

[VAYankee]

Probaly one of the few places they could be unloaded without questions being asked

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

Probaly one of the few places they could be unloaded without questions being asked

I must be confused, which happens often. I thought they were being offered to you now, after being bought at CC.

[VAYankee]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I must be confused, which happens often. I thought they were being offered to you now, after being bought at CC.

No the Ruth ball was offered to me first, and I apparently asked too many questions so they sold that ball to someone else. They then offered me the Gehrig ball, because I "had lost out on Ruth by not acting fast enough" , and perhaps hedged their bets that I again wouldn't be an easy sell and posted it simultaneously on CCA. Sophiedog pointed that out very early on, hence your confusion. I don't remember when in this thread, but I also received an email with a fairly extensive listing of balls available for purchase, although that seemed to be sent to a distribution list of theirs with all on bcc. When I didn't pull the trigger on either Ruth or Gehrig, they told me that they didn't think I would act on anything unless Ruth or Gehrig had signed an affidavit that they had signed a particular ball and that I suffered from "paralysis by analysis". That maybe so, but I had suspicions they were fakes, and the folks here confirmed as much for which I'm very grateful. I'm also not out $5 grand.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

I have his name and number. His name his Dave Ingber, although as you know JDE is run by Ralph Perullo. Dave is located in Minnesota.

Please send me a personal email with this guys (Dave) contact information including name, phone number, and mailing address. I have been heavily involved in vintage sports items for over 25 years living in Minnesota my entire life and I have no idea who this is. I would like to look in to it further if you don't mind. Thanks, Jason

[djson1]

Originally Posted by VAYankee

So I'm curious as to who people believe is/are the best auction house(s). Heritage I'd assume is one, Lelands? SCP? Hunt? Legendary? RR? Grey Flannel?

Just remember, even with these larger and well known auctions houses, you STILL need to be very careful. I buy from Heritage as well, but I would NEVER believe that all their items are put up there with expert knowledge. I've seen some blatant forgeries and mistakes in descriptions on their site. To their credit, they do remove items if you point it out to them and they revisit the listing. It just surprises me that some crap does get listed there in the first place though. Just recently, they listed a Lakers floor board with the description saying it was signed by Wilt Chamberlain, along with others. But Wilt didn't sign it....his name was just written on it by somebody else. They took this item off though after it was pointed out.

[VAYankee]

What about REA?

[Klrdds]

I have had good dealings with REA for many years, and they are one of the best, if not he best , AH at offering vintage material in all categories in my opinion. But again do your homework before bidding...that is the key . It is not the AH but your knowledge as well that makes a successful transaction.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

I have had good dealings with REA for many years, and they are one of the best, if not he best , AH at offering vintage material in all categories in my opinion. But again do your homework before bidding...that is the key . It is not the AH but your knowledge as well that makes a successful transaction.

+1 to everything you just said. Regarding autographs, I have found that none of the AH's will remove an autograph unless it can be proven that it is bad and the only acceptable proof I know of is that the ball was created after the player died.

The AH's all rely on their authenticator, period. You might love an AH, but their job is to get the highest return possible for their consignor.

[VAYankee]

Originally Posted by Runscott

+1 to everything you just said. Regarding autographs, I have found that none of the AH's will remove an autograph unless it can be proven that it is bad and the only acceptable proof I know of is that the ball was created after the player died.

The AH's all rely on their authenticator, period. You might love an AH, but their job is to get the highest return possible for their consignor.

Fair enough, but the AHs need to be concerned if they're trafficking a lot of potentially forged items, right? I'd imagine that those returns for their customers will diminish tremendously as the AH develops a reputation. I get the fact that no AH is beyond reproach, but how much fake stuff is going through the bigger houses like Heritage, Hunt, Leland's, Legends, etc.?

[ding974]

As the sales manager at the Joe DiMaggio Estate, I wanted to set the record straight about Mike Foster who uses the moniker VA Yankee. To be blunt, this fellow has basically crafted a fairy tale. He had been barred from our business because of rude behavior to 3 sales associates, foul language, and a habit of reneging on orders or just continuing to furnish credit cards that would decline in payment for such. I am sure, Mr. Foster will lash out in another long make-believe diatribe in rebuttal here, but the fact remains we have been in business for 18 years, and at least in talking to another fellow I know at a competing memorabilia company--Mr. Foster has been barred from there, too, because of his behavior. It seems Mr. Foster has LOTS of problems--the least of those being the memorabilia we sell..

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by ding974

As the sales manager at the Joe DiMaggio Estate, I wanted to set the record straight about Mike Foster who uses the moniker VA Yankee. To be blunt, this fellow has basically crafted a fairy tale. He had been barred from our business because of rude behavior to 3 sales associates, foul language, and a habit of reneging on orders or just continuing to furnish credit cards that would decline in payment for such. I am sure, Mr. Foster will lash out in another long make-believe diatribe in rebuttal here, but the fact remains we have been in business for 18 years, and at least in talking to another fellow I know at a competing memorabilia company--Mr. Foster has been barred from there, too, because of his behavior. It seems Mr. Foster has LOTS of problems--the least of those being the memorabilia we sell..

And you made this post three years after this thread has died,, why?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And you made this post three years after this thread has died,, why?

Who is the "DiMaggioEstate" Ebay seller?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by ding974

As the sales manager at the Joe DiMaggio Estate, I wanted to set the record straight about Mike Foster who uses the moniker VA Yankee. To be blunt, this fellow has basically crafted a fairy tale. He had been barred from our business because of rude behavior to 3 sales associates, foul language, and a habit of reneging on orders or just continuing to furnish credit cards that would decline in payment for such. I am sure, Mr. Foster will lash out in another long make-believe diatribe in rebuttal here, but the fact remains we have been in business for 18 years, and at least in talking to another fellow I know at a competing memorabilia company--Mr. Foster has been barred from there, too, because of his behavior. It seems Mr. Foster has LOTS of problems--the least of those being the memorabilia we sell..

Any chance you can set the record straight on the Coach's Corner forgeries you peddle?

[Kco]

So pass the buck and try to act like your a moral and noble business, but your company still peddles blatantly forgeries. You all should be in jail, people here see through your BS.

[shelly]

Wow, sales manager of a company that sells some of the finest garbage ever sold. You should be really proud

[ding974]

Because I do not have 24/7 to sit on the Internet, with nothing else better to do, and only addressed this matter when it was recently pointed out to me. Obviously you people do have lots of spare time on your hands. My understanding is most of the posters on here are failed individuals in this business-1 of which I know for sure is. You guys act all high and mighty, like you know squat about hand-writing. You make lots of derogatory comments, talk a big game behind the anonymity of the computer-- but offer not a shred of proof backing up your allegations. I'm sure this response will get all kinds of derogatory comments from the jackals who peruse this site night & day. Does not matter to me, nor 99% of the population, who realize what a joke this site is.

[ruth-gehrig]

Please post a direct link to your ebay listings because I cannot find you

P.S You're gonna get shredded to pieces

[steve B]

Just remember, they're not laughing at you, they're laughing.... nah, who am I kidding. They're laughing at you.

[ding974]

It is amazing how easy it is to press some of you people's buttons--like throwing scraps of food to the monkeys in the cages at the zoo. Hopefully I have some more spare time to see the next perceived witty retort.. Honestly, you people sound like a bunch of 8 year old girls in grade school whining.

What are there on this sight, 15-20 regulars?? If you think people take you seriously then there would be thousands on here--so keep deluding yourself.

If you've got some proof beyond a reasonable doubt then go to law enforcement, and don't just sit on your computer trying to be witty with the other losers here who you can commiserate with in your shared life's miseries.

[parker1b2]

This board has the most knowledgeable collectors in the hobby. I would take people's opinions on this board on authentication over anywhere else, including PSA, JSA etc. As someone who has been collecting for almost 30 years, I have learned more from this board then anywhere else.

And as a sales manager that sells collectibles, wouldn't you want the community here to be your customers? The members here probably spend more on the hobby then anywhere else.

PS-I would also like to see a link to the items you guys have available for sale.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by ding974

It is amazing how easy it is to press some of you people's buttons--like throwing scraps of food to the monkeys in the cages at the zoo. Hopefully I have some more spare time to see the next perceived witty retort.. Honestly, you people sound like a bunch of 8 year old girls in grade school whining.

What are there on this sight, 15-20 regulars?? If you think people take you seriously then there would be thousands on here--so keep deluding yourself.

If you've got some proof beyond a reasonable doubt then go to law enforcement, and don't just sit on your computer trying to be witty with the other losers here who you can commiserate with in your shared life's miseries.

Curious why your autographs are not examined by the most popular hobby authenticators PSA and JSA? I have issues with them but they get it right much more often than they get it wrong. You would think that inventory such as yours would do much better sales wise if they had certs from JSA or PSA.

[Shoeless Moe]

this one?......

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-A...vip=true&rt=nc

[Shoeless Moe]

and this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/TY-COBB-SIG...p2047675.l2557


funny thing in the listing it says "I'm not a collector" yet the Ebay ID is JJCollector504


also sold these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-s...p2047675.l2557

[ruth-gehrig]

http://stores.ebay.com/Joe-DiMaggio-Estate

Check the Authenticity policy:
We review every single item that we offer for sale. Our sources have been checked and rechecked. We discuss at length collections we purchase more often than not from clients that have been buying from us for years. After 20 years of collecting and 15 years of selling, we are confident that our process works. We guarantee that every signature was carefully examined and deemed in our opinion to be authentic. If you have an Authenticator that states the item purchased is not authentic and will stand behind their position, then we will issue a refund. It is important to note that we will not accept an Authenticator that states, “It is our opinion that we cannot approve the signature” or words to that effect. He or she must be able to prove that it is not authentic. This must be accomplished within 30 days from the date of purchase. Prior to purchase, we will be happy to explain the paperwork accompanying the item. It is important to ask necessary questions to make the right decision.

Unless we have seen the item signed by ourselves, we cannot guarantee, nor can anyone else, the authenticity of a signature. Upon hearing that, the first response should be, “What about third-party authentication? That guarantees that the signature is 100% authentic!” Unfortunately, it does not, as it is still a rendered opinion. There are many collectors that do not believe in third-party authentication. There are many collectors that have confidence in specific Authenticators while refusing to accept others. Combine the fact that authentication is not an exact science and the sheer volume that is reviewed on a daily basis; most reputable Authenticators themselves will admit that even under the best of circumstances, their findings are merely an opinion. It is not concrete proof of a genuine autograph.

There are dozens of autograph authentication companies in existence today – from so-called handwriting experts to forensic examiners to corporate examiners like PSA/DNA and many others that claim to use state-of-the-art technology with names that very few people understand like Color Spectral Deconvolution. The autograph authentication choices available to a collector are confusing at best. These companies make their share of mistakes given the nature of the authentication as just an opinion in the first place. Add to this the thousands of autographs the top-tier companies are asked to authenticate each and every day, coupled with the fact that authentication is a for-profit business, and you can imagine the potential issue that may result. Going one step further, would you continue to use an Authenticator that rejected 20%-30% of the items he/she reviewed? And where are these companies finding these experts to review and give a go/no-go on all these items?

One thing we cannot do and no one else can do either, guarantee the authenticity of any signature we did not see signed ourselves. It is also difficult, in most cases, to prove with 100% certainty that a signature is not authentic. Common sense oftentimes works. If a ball is made in 1960 and the player died in 1940, then obviously he did not sign it. So where does that leave the collector? Does third-party authentication have any value? Especially when you send an item to several Authenticators, and receive at least two opinions. Memorabilia Center and every individual selling vintage signatures have one fact in common: we were not present when the signature was signed. Thus, how can we be so certain that our process works above all others? Our process has worked since 1999 and we follow it at all times. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Your ultimate satisfaction and trust is our #1 goal!

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

this one?......

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BABE-RUTH-A...vip=true&rt=nc

At first glance the COA looks like a JSA. Has the same silver lettering on top