Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What if they told him they had no reason to believe the card was stolen? (I don't know that to be the case, just drawing possible inferences.)

A more realistic inference to be drawn is that they told him what they saw on the back of the card was inconclusive, especially considering they looked at the back of the card not inside an FBI lab with FBI equipment but with whatever they could find at the PSA booth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

A more realistic inference to be drawn is that they told him what they saw on the back of the card was inconclusive, especially considering they looked at the back of the card not inside an FBI lab with FBI equipment but with whatever they could find at the PSA booth.

If there was inadequate equipment on site to make a proper assessment, and they had some suspicion the card might be stolen (which I assume to be the case since they took it from him), why didn't they (if you know) keep the card for further evaluation rather than returning it to Leon?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If there was inadequate equipment on site to make a proper assessment, and they had some suspicion the card might be stolen (which I assume to be the case since they took it from him), why didn't they (if you know) keep the card for further evaluation rather than returning it to Leon?

You'd have to ask them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I guess how I would come out then would depend a lot on the exact words used when the card was returned.

But without knowing that, if the FBI took a card from me, and then gave it back to me without requiring further evaluation, that would give me some comfort. I'm not sure I would then feel obliged to conduct my own forensic examination, if the FBI itself did not feel one was warranted, or could yield any evidence relevant to the issue.

With hindsight, we can see that more could have been done. But it's hindsight.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess how I would come out then would depend a lot on the exact words used when the card was returned.

But without knowing that, if the FBI took a card from me, and then gave it back to me without requiring further evaluation, that would give me some comfort. I'm not sure I would then feel obliged to conduct my own forensic examination, if the FBI itself did not feel one was warranted, or could yield any evidence relevant to the issue.

With hindsight, we can see that more could have been done. But it's hindsight.

Did you read the transcript?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I did but it was a little hard to follow and also it was before it was returned, right, because Scott was saying he didn't think it would be returned and Leon was saying he thought he would get it back at least for now?

[mr.ginter]

I won't kick a dog when he's down. Even though there are a few items I'd love to own in my collection listed. I'm going to follow John's lead and won't be bidding on any items from Leon's collection. In case this is considered a controversial post and you need my first and last name its Scott Hassel.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess how I would come out then would depend a lot on the exact words used when the card was returned.

But without knowing that, if the FBI took a card from me, and then gave it back to me without requiring further evaluation, that would give me some comfort. I'm not sure I would then feel obliged to conduct my own forensic examination, if the FBI itself did not feel one was warranted, or could yield any evidence relevant to the issue.

With hindsight, we can see that more could have been done. But it's hindsight.

I can imagine the FBI could have a million reasons to do this. Remember the FBI is not concerned with matters of truth but of law. You can be 100 percent sure something is stolen, but even if you witnessed the theft yourself it doesn't mean there's anything you can do legally without proof that would hold up in a court of law. The truth and the determination of the law are two very different things.

But at the end of the day the FBI's opinion doesn't matter that much to me. This community knows more about baseball cards and their history than any FBI agent. We know the card has an NYPL stamp, we know the NYPL has reported that exact card stolen, of which there are two known copies in the world. There are no records that I know of of the library selling that card (if there were, it would be a different story). The card was altered to remove the stamp (by the way, the fact that it's holdered with a number grade should be enough to take the auction down right this second...) and there's no mention of the library in its supposedly extensive provenance records.

I think this is a pretty open and shut case. If it looks, quacks, then duck, etc.

And honestly for Leon to classify this as a witch hunt I think is ultra-hypocritical. There have been so many auction busting threads in the past, but suddenly when it's one of Leon's items, Leon's response is that the community is out to get him. The very community with all his supporters and the people who consider him to be one of the pillars of the hobby. I mean honestly, give me a break.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by poorlydrawncat

I can imagine the FBI could have a million reasons to do this. Remember the FBI is not concerned with matters of truth but of law. You can be 100 percent sure something is stolen, but even if you witnessed the theft yourself it doesn't mean there's anything you can do legally without proof that would hold up in a court of law. The truth and the determination of the law are two very different things.

But at the end of the day the FBI's opinion doesn't matter that much to me. This community knows more about baseball cards and their history than any FBI agent. We know the card has an NYPL stamp, we know the NYPL has reported that exact card stolen, of which there are two known copies in the world. There are no records that I know of of the library selling that card (if there were, it would be a different story). The card was altered to remove the stamp (by the way, the fact that it's holdered with a number grade should be enough to take the auction down right this second...) and there's no mention of the library in its supposedly extensive provenance records.

I think this is a pretty open and shut case. If it looks, quacks, then duck, etc.

And honestly for Leon to classify this as a witch hunt I think is ultra-hypocritical. There have been so many auction busting threads in the past, but suddenly when it's one of Leon's items, Leon's response is that the community is out to get him. The very community with all his supporters and the people who consider him to be one of the pillars of the hobby. I mean honestly, give me a break.

We have known SINCE YESTERDAY of the NYPL stamp. Show me where "the community" knew this before yesterday.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We have known SINCE YESTERDAY of the NYPL stamp. Show me where "the community" knew this before yesterday.

That's kinda my point...

FBI didn't notice the stamp, community did. And the FBI were the ones actively investigating it. Wouldn't you think the FBI would think to check for the stamp from the institution where it was reported stolen? It took the community to figure that out, not the FBI. And yea it took some time but it still happened before the FBI, which doesn't do much for my confidence in them. That's all I'm saying.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We have known SINCE YESTERDAY of the NYPL stamp. Show me where "the community" knew this before yesterday.

Peter, I can't speak for everyone but I knew about it that's why I brought it up (post #195) to Leon before it ever hit Nash's website.

Many people knew of Leon's visit about this this card from the Feds it's a small hobby. Most figured he would work it out or get the questions on this item cleared up before hit ever hit an auction block or was sold privately. Seems that didn't happen....and it seems from the auction description some folks were aware and were covering all the angles.

Look owning a stolen item doesn't make you a crook not in the collectibles world that's for sure it could happen to any of us. In that way I have sympathy for Leon. To me it's how you handle the item and the choices you make after you're made clearly aware of issues that defines the situation. That's my issue with Leon in this situation. Not the stolen or potentially stolen card, but the way he handled the situation with this item and letting it hit the auction block. To play naive, innocent, call people names and play the victim of a witch hunt afterwards just further frustrates me. Get over yourself you're not so important that myself and others are out to get you. What I did here with Leon is nothing I haven't done with other folks Leland's, Chan, Paragon, Allen, Goldin etc. in those cases it was good work kudos or silence from Leon. Now that he's in the hot seat I'm an idiot, Jeff has a shady law practice and we all can pound sand,

Cheers,

John

P.S. I just got your email I would agree a bit it could be a good thing to talk about over beers at the national if you're heading out. At the very least give us a reason to drink.

[danmckee]

WOW! Serious detective work with the scans and pointing out the remnants of the stamp.

I am contacting Heritage to remove my bids on this item.

On a good note... that will free up some coinage to pop something else in this KILLER auction! Oh how I wish I had more to spend

C everyone in CHI-TOWN

Dan