I got screwed over on the BST today!

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And what does any of this have to do with baseball cards where a buyer is free to ask questions if for any reason the scan isn't adequate? And I think the original example wasn't even a return just a cancellation before receipt.

Buyers change their mind. On Amazon.com, you can buy something and then cancel it before it ships and expect a refund. There is nothing unethical about this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

Buyers change their mind. On Amazon.com, you can buy something and then cancel it before it ships and expect a refund. There is nothing unethical about this.

Dealing with the world's largest online retailer is not analogous in my view to a one on one card transaction. So in your view it's fine to win a week long auction, then say oh I changed my mind sorry seller? That seems ridiculous to me. And just as bad, or close, on a BIN.

[packs]

I'm still not really seeing the outrage. I get it that it's annoying that you thought you bought a card, but the real anger lies in selling your card and not being able to get it back on the other end of the deal.

Everyone was squared away when it was cancelled. There isn't a lingering refund problem or a lost card in the mail. I think it's reasonable to think twice about dealing with a seller, but I don't see why he should have to do something with his card he doesn't want to do (even though I realize no one forced him to put it up for sale).

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dealing with the world's largest online retailer is not analogous in my view to a one on one card transaction. So in your view it's fine to win a week long auction, then say oh I changed my mind sorry seller? That seems ridiculous to me. And just as bad, or close, on a BIN.

Well, ebay is the world's largest auctioneer, I believe...

Every circumstance has its own issue. I don't believe it's right buy some audio equipment, use it at your party, and then return it afterwards. Similarly, it's not right to bid in an auction that you never had any intention of paying. And I do believe that large auction companies will sue you if you do not pay your invoices. (I saw that Siegel, a large stamp auctioneer had a catalog just from the items from a large nonpaying bidder recently.) However, if you purchased a graded card that had a crease that was not visible in the online scan and was not described in the description, then I believe you have more of a case for a return. And frankly for a BIN, I believe you should be able to return or cancel anything that you want since there wouldn't be a loss on either side (other than perhaps shipping costs). Frankly, I sell on ebay, and I offer 14 day no questions asked returns (buyer pays return shipping cost). You can cancel an item before it ships, or return it for any reason, it's completely fine with me. Many of my buyers on ebay are repeat customers, so I want them to be as satisfied as possible from the transaction. If they have a bad taste in their mouth because the transaction went sour, they may not purchase from me again. And on the flip side, if they know that they will have a pleasant shopping experience when they purchase from me, then they are likely to look at my listings again and perhaps even purchase items from me even if my prices may be a bit higher than others. And I am not a big box store or retailer by any means, but just sell stuff as a hobby to support my collecting habits.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think he would, actually. He has been pretty candid about his misbehavior.

Actually, he already lied when he told Eric he would sell it to him. So what's one
more lie.

[Econteachert205]

Why does this incident need metaphors and analogies?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't see why he should have to do something with his card he doesn't want to do (even though I realize no one forced him to put it up for sale).

I've said it to you before in other threads and I'll say it in this one. You are an IDIOT!

You don't see why the seller should have to do something with his card that he doesn't want to do? Ummm, maybe because once he posted it for sale and accepted payment, IT WAS NO LONGER HIS CARD! He had an obligation to ship.

[2dueces]

Well I'm going to add my 2 cents here. Not because I should, because I have the right to remain silent, I just don't have the ability.
No one lost money? No one died? No one got put in jail?
Shitty deal but both parties will live?
I take it that is the last 1951 Mantle PSA 3 left on the face of the earth?
No? Then I suggest you take your $3k and find another and never deal with
this fellow again. Have a beer, relax, go to the bank and get all ones, spread
them on the bed and jump in. No harm, no foul.
The wisdom of the deuce and a little Ron White

[nebboy]

Or the obvious...GoBucs got a better offer somewhere and the card is (re)sold, so he cannot honor the deal...no idea if this is true but it would be simple to just honor the deal and move on...I cannot see another reason not to honor the deal.

Ding-ding-ding we have a winner

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I've said it to you before in other threads and I'll say it in this one. You are an IDIOT!

You don't see why the seller should have to do something with his card that he doesn't want to do? Ummm, maybe because once he posted it for sale and accepted payment, IT WAS NO LONGER HIS CARD! He had an obligation to ship.

Ok dude, reading is essential. It is his card and people are telling him what to do with it. I am of the opinion it's his decision ultimately and if he doesn't want to sell, he shouldn't just because you think he should. That's all I said, that's all I implied, and personally, if that makes me an idiot then it's nice on this side of the fence instead of the one you're on.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Ok dude, reading is essential.

So is comprehension. He offered a card for sale and took payment for it. You say "I don't see why he should have to do something with his card he doesn't want to do" and "if he doesn't want to sell, he shouldn't just because you think he should."

He ALREADY sold it. Do you not comprehend that??? This isn't something he was considering doing. He did it. Then he reneged on the deal. If you're okay with that, so be it. Your opinion is different than 99% of the rest of the board.

[packs]

That's fine. To me, the card is still yours until it's not, just like I said. People can feel however they want to feel about it, and most of us are able to express ourselves without personally insulting someone else. The point is, it's his card and I don't see why he should do what you tell him to do with it. It's his decision and he'll live with it. What is so wrong with that line of thinking? I'm not gonna jump because you say jump.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

That's fine. To me, the card is still yours until it's not, just like I said. People can feel however they want to feel about it, and most of us are able to express ourselves without personally insulting someone else. The point is, it's his card and I don't see why he should do what you tell him to do with it. It's his decision and he'll live with it. What is so wrong with that line of thinking? I'm not gonna jump because you say jump.

The buyer paid for the card. It's no longer the seller's once he accepts payment. PERIOD!

[packs]

Well if it's his card how come he doesn't have it? Because it wasn't his yet. Simple. Easy. Direct.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Well if it's his card how come he doesn't have it?

Because the seller reneged on the deal, IDIOT!

[packs]

So the card never changed hands then, right?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

So the card never changed hands then, right?

That doesn't matter. If I sell you a card, you pay for it, but I just decide to keep it, does that still make it mine just because it didn't change hands?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Imagine if Packs bought a house and the seller reneged before the closing, and refunded the deposit. It was still the seller's house, right? No harm no foul., right?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine if Packs bought a house and the seller reneged before the closing, and refunded the deposit. It was still the seller's house, right? No harm no foul., right?

We're not talking about a deposit. We're talking about an item paid in full. Let's say Packs buys the house, closes, the deal is funded and then the seller changes his mind and wants to unwind the deal? Is it still the seller's house to do so? No, because it was PAID for. Same with the card. It was paid in full. Once the card is paid in full, it becomes the buyers regardless if it's still in the seller's possession or not.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy or support on this one and furthermore understand Eric's frustration and those who feel my decision is/was dishonorable, but at the end of the day the card is mine to do with what I choose. If some of you don't agree and opt not to do business with me in the future then so be it. There are many, many other avenues available for selling cards at our collective disposal so losing this particular avenue to a percentage of the board is not going to influence my decision one way or another. Neither will anyone's opinion of me as a person, seller, or otherwise.

That said, I have already expressed to Eric that I will absolutely sell him the card (which I do indeed still possess) at the price we agreed upon once I am able to locate and secure a suitable replacement. I know many of you feel I should do that now, and although you are certainly entitled to that opinion, that is not the course I'm choosing to take with the card at this time. This will be my last comment on this particular subject, although I do reserve the right to defend myself against any additional erroneous accusations.

That first paragraph is mind-blowing. So it's ok to continue this practice on other venues. I don't think those venues will be any more forgiving than net 54. Your apologies mean nothing when you still have it in your ability to make things right. You f'd him over, make things right and sell him the card as PROMISED and AGREED upon. Why should he be the one without the Mantle, you should be. Your actions and only your actions caused Eric to be without a card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine if Packs bought a house and the seller reneged before the closing, and refunded the deposit. It was still the seller's house, right? No harm no foul., right?

Let's put the shoe on the other foot, Peter. Let's say that the buyer had paid with a credit card through PayPal. The card is mailed, the transaction is complete. Once the buyer gets the card, he changes his mind (for no other reason than to just change his mind), call his credit card company to dispute the transaction, gets refunded, and then mails the card back to the seller. Is that fair to the seller? What's the difference?

[7nohitter]

Maybe it's for the best-that bullsh*t centering on that Mantle would drive me nuts. He can find a much better example!

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine if Packs bought a house and the seller reneged before the closing, and refunded the deposit. It was still the seller's house, right? No harm no foul., right?

I believe that real estate transactions involve removing "contingencies" in a "time is of the essence" manner. Should B/S/T transactions follow suit?

Not singling you out, Peter. I agree with what you've posted.

Nor am I suggesting that the B/S/T be aligned with the purchase and sale of houses.

I merely think that the (prospective) buyers and sellers mentioned within this thread might have benefitted by more transparently disclosing their particular situations here.

Best regards,

Eric

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Let's put the shoe on the other foot, Peter. Let's say that the buyer had paid with a credit card through PayPal. The card is mailed, the transaction is complete. Once the buyer gets the card, he changes his mind (for no other reason than to just change his mind), call his credit card company to dispute the transaction, gets refunded, and then mails the card back to the seller. Is that fair to the seller? What's the difference?

Jesus David have you read the damn thread and my 10 posts blasting Dan? I am agreeing with you and was showing the absurdity of Packs' position. I was being sarcastic, in other words.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I believe that real estate transactions involve removing "contingencies" in a "time is of the essence" manner. Should B/S/T transactions follow suit?

Not singling you out, Peter. I agree with what you've posted.

Nor am I suggesting that the B/S/T be aligned with the purchase and sale of houses.

I merely think that the (prospective) buyers and sellers mentioned within this thread might have benefitted by more transparently disclosing their particular situations here.

Best regards,

Eric

Yes, Dan should have, if there was a contingency that threatened to undo the deal. I don't see why Eric should have.

[iwantitiwinit]

Leon is there a way to block people from listing on BST like the blocks buyer/seller blocks on EBAY because I sure would like to block this potential seller.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jesus David have you read the damn thread and my 10 posts blasting Dan? I am agreeing with you and was showing the absurdity of Packs' position.

Sorry, Peter, I'm just fired up about this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sorry, Peter, I'm just fired up about this.

Yes, Dan's attitude definitely sucks, IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Maybe it's for the best-that bullsh*t centering on that Mantle would drive me nuts. He can find a much better example!

At the same time it had no print lines, was not out of register, and didn't have big gum stains on the back.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, Dan's attitude definitely sucks, IMO.

And Dan, I don't appreciate your profanity-laden private message either.

If you can't take the heat, go away, nobody will miss you.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, Dan should have, if there was a contingency that threatened to undo the deal. I don't see why Eric should have.

Peter,

Again, I agree with you.

The buyer did everything correctly, within the context of the Net54 B/S/T...and on almost every other level.

Should he have sold his Mantle before having the upgrade in hand? The answer to that is open to interpretation. I personally believe (as do you, if I am not mistaken) that the OP was right in expecting the "seller" to deliver a specific performance.

Would I let the original card go before having the upgrade in hand? Who knows? Does it really matter?

In this particular case:

"Seller" offered the card for sale
Buyer negotiated with "seller"
The two parties agreed upon a price
Buyer delivered the money

As far as I am concerned, the buyer completed their end of the transaction completely and in good faith. The "seller" backed out of a deal that was already done. Shame on them.

Again, I am not singling you out or disagreeing with you regarding the main point of this discussion.

Yes, Dan is a weasel for backing out of a deal that he not only negotiated with the buyer...he was also paid in full and then reneged on the deal.

Best regards,

Eric

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I nearly posted on pg. 5 but didn't. Nine pages later, I feel the need to throw in my relatively meaningless two cents.

Life is so much simpler when people follow through and do what they say they'll do. What bothers me the most about this is I somehow feel this rattles a little bit of Net54's sanctity. I know that probably sounds over the top, however, this place has always had a safer, more ethical feel to it, especially compared to ebay. I have had great transactions on the B/S/T here as a buyer and seller. Net54 is a real community. I have always appreciated how fellow collectors here help each other out and just take care of one another. Stuff like this makes me feel as though the barbarians are lurking just outside of the city walls.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

I nearly posted on pg. 5 but didn't. Nine pages later, I feel the need to throw in my relatively meaningless two cents.

Life is so much simpler when people follow through and do what they say they'll do. What bothers me the most about this is I somehow feel this rattles a little bit of Net54's sanctity. I know that probably sounds over the top, however, this place has always had a safer, more ethical feel to it, especially compared to ebay. I have had great transactions on the B/S/T here as a buyer and seller. Net54 is a real community. I have always appreciated how fellow collectors here help each out and just take care of one another. Stuff like this makes me feel like the barbarians are lurking just outside of the city walls.

Perfectly said. We lose a bit of faith in the common man.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And Dan, I don't appreciate your profanity-laden private message either.

If you can't take the heat, go away, nobody will miss you.

Make that two.

Can't take fair criticism, Dan? Is that the best you can do, to drop f bombs on me?

[cozmokramer]

Quite a few of you have contacted me claiming to have had similar problems with this same seller.

We really need an automated feedback system where buyers leave positive and negative feedback on transactions. Once someone gets 3 strikes or negatives, they are banned from selling.

Based upon all your emails, the seller here would have been banned long ago!

How is it that so many people continue to have problems with one seller but yet as a community we do nothing about it?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He said he did not. And Eric was paying a strong price for that card, IMO.

will only know it was strong price if the price stays on b/s/t and have new prices to compare it too.....aside from them VCP stuff...

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

Maybe it's for the best-that bullsh*t centering on that Mantle would drive me nuts. He can find a much better example!

+1! Eric, there are over 1,000 51 Bowman Mantle cards graded higher just in PSA holders alone. WAIT for a better one to come along, you'll forget all about this one in a hurry!

[xplainer]

I'm a lightweight on this website, but this has nothing to do with how long you've been on here.

I don't know the OP or seller in this case, but when the agreed amount of money exchanges hands, that should be it. There is no other way to look at it. Not morally or logically.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy or support on this one and furthermore understand Eric's frustration and those who feel my decision is/was dishonorable, but at the end of the day the card is mine to do with what I choose. If some of you don't agree and opt not to do business with me in the future then so be it. There are many, many other avenues available for selling cards at our collective disposal so losing this particular avenue to a percentage of the board is not going to influence my decision one way or another. Neither will anyone's opinion of me as a person, seller, or otherwise.

That said, I have already expressed to Eric that I will absolutely sell him the card (which I do indeed still possess) at the price we agreed upon once I am able to locate and secure a suitable replacement. I know many of you feel I should do that now, and although you are certainly entitled to that opinion, that is not the course I'm choosing to take with the card at this time. This will be my last comment on this particular subject, although I do reserve the right to defend myself against any additional erroneous accusations.

Some folks here value the sense of community @ N54 & greatly appreciate and respect the opportunity to buy/sell within said community.
You already sold Eric the card once at the agreed to price. You changed the rules of the transaction after he sent you a large sum of money.
shenanigans.jpg
Why Eric or anyone would consider buying from you in the future is beyond me.
Paul

[travrosty]

Bucs decided to pass the hurt onto the next guy, and Cosmo honored his deal with the guy he sold his mantle to. He didn't pass the problem along to his customer that he came to an agreement with. Kudos. This is a study in contrast on how people behave in this hobby.

Cosmo did the right thing even though he is without a mantle now, and Bucs COULD have but decided to take the snakebelly/wagon wheel rut option.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

I nearly posted on pg. 5 but didn't. Nine pages later, I feel the need to throw in my relatively meaningless two cents.

Life is so much simpler when people follow through and do what they say they'll do. What bothers me the most about this is I somehow feel this rattles a little bit of Net54's sanctity. I know that probably sounds over the top, however, this place has always had a safer, more ethical feel to it, especially compared to ebay. I have had great transactions on the B/S/T here as a buyer and seller. Net54 is a real community. I have always appreciated how fellow collectors here help each other out and just take care of one another. Stuff like this makes me feel as though the barbarians are lurking just outside of the city walls.

This is really well stated. I love that we have this little community to trade and sell cards and talk about them. It really makes me mad when people take advantage of other members or screw others over for money. Like gobucmagic said, there are plenty of other places to do that. We don't need people like that here.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by cozmokramer

Quite a few of you have contacted me claiming to have had similar problems with this same seller.

We really need an automated feedback system where buyers leave positive and negative feedback on transactions. Once someone gets 3 strikes or negatives, they are banned from selling.

Based upon all your emails, the seller here would have been banned long ago!

How is it that so many people continue to have problems with one seller but yet as a community we do nothing about it?

I'd really appreciate if people would post this type of thing publicly. We need to police the BST ourselves and it doesn't do a lot of good to just pass along bad experiences via PM. We should be alerting others so that they aren't the next person victimized, inconvenienced, or what have you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Make that two.

Can't take fair criticism, Dan? Is that the best you can do, to drop f bombs on me?

If a moderator catches wind of members abusing other members in PMs, with F bombs and such, we will take action. Take it somewhere else, not here, even in PMs.

ps....I don't know of other functionalities of our s/w but I might talk to Brian about some stuff.....we are better off than we used to be in that respect.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cozmokramer

Quite a few of you have contacted me claiming to have had similar problems with this same seller.

We really need an automated feedback system where buyers leave positive and negative feedback on transactions. Once someone gets 3 strikes or negatives, they are banned from selling.

Based upon all your emails, the seller here would have been banned long ago!

How is it that so many people continue to have problems with one seller but yet as a community we do nothing about it?

Those people are contacting the wrong person.

[frankbmd]

I'm currently in Banning, but I am not the right person.

[cardsfan73]

[QUOTE=Gobucsmagic74;1456732]I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy or support on this one and furthermore understand Eric's frustration and those who feel my decision is/was dishonorable, but at the end of the day the card is mine to do with what I choose. If some of you don't agree and opt not to do business with me in the future then so be it. There are many, many other avenues available for selling cards at our collective disposal so losing this particular avenue to a percentage of the board is not going to influence my decision one way or another. Neither will anyone's opinion of me as a person, seller, or otherwise. QUOTE]

Any chance you could provide your ebay id and and your id on other venues so I can make sure I don't ever buy from you? I would hate to purchase something somewhere else only to have you change your mind.

Thanks,
Scott

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

If a moderator catches wind of members abusing other members in PMs, with F bombs and such, we will take action. Take it somewhere else, not here, even in PMs.

ps....I don't know of other functionalities of our s/w but I might talk to Brian about some stuff.....we are better off than we used to be in that respect.

I've been here many years, and obviously have not always agreed with everyone , but this is the first time I remember getting profanity-laden PMs. I guess I never ticked off the Bruces.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

I'd really appreciate if people would post this type of thing publicly. We need to police the BST ourselves and it doesn't do a lot of good to just pass along bad experiences via PM. We should be alerting others so that they aren't the next person victimized, inconvenienced, or what have you.

In a perfect world this wouldn't be necessary, but... I would have no problem with what you propose, Luke.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been here many years, and obviously have not always agreed with everyone , but this is the first time I remember getting profanity-laden PMs. I guess I never ticked off the Bruces.

Touched a nerve did we, Peter?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Touched a nerve did we, Peter?

Hah.