Iconic Players from each decade (50's/60's/70's)

[the 'stache]

I don't think anybody here disagrees with the assertion that Garvey was a good, consistent player. We're talking Hall of Fame here.

As for his OBP being skewed by his early and late years, couldn't you really say that about any player? I mean, Robin Yount was a career .285 hitter. Between 1978 and 1989, twelve years, he hit a combined .301. We talked about Clemente's lifetime .359 OBP as being a bit low. Well, eliminate his first five years, leaving his last thirteen years, and his career OBP is .375.

Garvey's OBP, even during his prime years of 1974 to 1981 (only eight seasons), was still only .346. He was a .309 hitter during that span, but only walked, on average, 36 times a year. He averaged only 26 walks a season for his career, or 33 per 162 games played.

It's not a knock on Garvey. New metrics have changed the perceptions of some players. Garvey, unfortunately for his fans, might be one where his stature is diminished slightly. The guy only missed 8 games between 1974 and 1982. And he was very productive in his prime. I'll take consistency and reliability on my team any time.

Garvey is one of those guys I consider a .300 hitter, even though his lifetime is only .294. Mantle is another (and it killed him that he finished below .300 for his career). A few really down seasons at the end of a career doesn't sour an otherwise brilliant career. But for those players who really remained truly great hitters at an advanced age, like Clemente, it should only add to their reputation.

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

Garvey was a very good player. Most teams would have loved to have had him playing for them. His OBP is skewed by his early and later years stats. During his peak with LA his OBP was only less than .341 once, and that was in '77 at .335. This covered a 7 year span. I would have loved to have had him on KC! The guy played almost every game, was good for almost 200 hits, 20+ home runs, 100 RBI's, and .300.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/87...-espn-magazine

[KCRfan1]

I'm in agreement with you Bill.

Garvey was very good, just not good enough for the Hall.

Baseball seems to have become overly reliant on saber metrics at times, rather than sticking to the basics, like the stats on the back of a ball card.

[mckinneyj]

No Garvey wasn't "great" - but that's not what the OP was listing... he wrote this (see post #1)

> I don't necessarily mean the BEST players, but the ones that are immediately connected to a time period. These would be the players that even non-baseball fans would have known about during each respective decade. <

And I think that by that criteria Garvey fits - so too would a meteor like Fidrych in the 70s, and very good pitcher named Valenzuela in the 80s - even my non-sports fan grandmother knew who they were back in the day. She'd have known their names just as well as Jackie Robinson, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams and Reggie Jackson. Their celebrity trascended the sports page - so even the "non sports fan" knew their names.

[blackandgold]

I think you could add Willie Stargell to the 1970's list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stargell is another one of those guys whose sabrmetrics seem out of line. I would have expected him to rank much better than this.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Batting - 17 (135), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 125 (147), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 106 (151), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 44 (128), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Left Field (15th), 57.5 career WAR/38.0 7yr-peak WAR/47.7 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS

[blackandgold]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Stargell is another one of those guys whose sabrmetrics seem out of line. I would have expected him to rank much better than this.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Batting - 17 (135), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink Batting - 125 (147), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 106 (151), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 44 (128), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Left Field (15th), 57.5 career WAR/38.0 7yr-peak WAR/47.7 JAWS
Average HOF LF (out of 19) = 65.1 career WAR/41.5 7yr-peak WAR/53.3 JAWS

Peter,
Thanks for posting those stats. I think that's one of the great things about baseball, you can have a discussion, and come at it from many different angles.
When I mentioned Stargell, it was coming from having the word "Iconic" in the thread. People still talk about his tape measure home runs, most of us imitated his windmill in the batters box, and the memory of his "Stargell stars" and the "We Are Family" 1979 World Series Championship team are familiar to even non-Pirates fans who are old enough to remember.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I don't think anybody here disagrees with the assertion that Garvey was a good, consistent player. We're talking Hall of Fame here.

As for his OBP being skewed by his early and late years, couldn't you really say that about any player? I mean, Robin Yount was a career .285 hitter. Between 1978 and 1989, twelve years, he hit a combined .301. We talked about Clemente's lifetime .359 OBP as being a bit low. Well, eliminate his first five years, leaving his last thirteen years, and his career OBP is .375.

Garvey's OBP, even during his prime years of 1974 to 1981 (only eight seasons), was still only .346. He was a .309 hitter during that span, but only walked, on average, 36 times a year. He averaged only 26 walks a season for his career, or 33 per 162 games played.

It's not a knock on Garvey. New metrics have changed the perceptions of some players. Garvey, unfortunately for his fans, might be one where his stature is diminished slightly. The guy only missed 8 games between 1974 and 1982. And he was very productive in his prime. I'll take consistency and reliability on my team any time.

Garvey is one of those guys I consider a .300 hitter, even though his lifetime is only .294. Mantle is another (and it killed him that he finished below .300 for his career). A few really down seasons at the end of a career doesn't sour an otherwise brilliant career. But for those players who really remained truly great hitters at an advanced age, like Clemente, it should only add to their reputation.

One of the things that I don't like is the use of OBP for middle of the lineup hitters. Garvey's peak was HOF worthy. Throw out the strike year of 1981 and from 1974-80 he averaged 201 hits and 104 rbis. I would rather have that than 150 hits 100 bbs and 75 rbi. Garvey may not have walked a lot, in part because he wasn't a big HR hitter, but he drove in runs. I think his relatively short peak of 74-81 keeps him out of the HOF.

[KCRfan1]

That stupid strike in ' 81 hurt a lot of players stat line.

[jason.1969]

Here is a different angle, focused on how the players were viewed during the decade rather than now. I don't want to confuse this approach with anything perfectly scientific, but it shows the relative frequency of each player's name within the Google corpus of works published in the 1970s. (You may have to click on it to make it legible. Or you can try making your own pretty quickly.) Based on the dozen or so names I tried, Reggie and Pete Rose seem head and shoulders above all others.

1970s NGrams.jpg

[jason.1969]

And here are the 50s and 60s...
1950s NGrams.jpg
1960s NGrams.jpg