PSA and off center cards

[DBesse27]

Haha,'now you're just screwing with me.

[irv]

Originally Posted by DBesse27

Haha,'now you're just screwing with me.

[Exhibitman]

Here is my completely idiosyncratic, totally personal, experiential take on this question, which is one I've kicked around with colleagues who are far more PSA-centric than me:

I look for high grade OC cards with eye appeal because that is how I remember them from the pack. Most cards from my childhood (the 1970s) were somewhat OC out of the pack. It doesn't bother me the way it bothers collectors who were kids in later decades when the precision of card manufacturing was just a whole lot better and who've since moved into older cards.

As I shop for cards from my collecting era in a PSA holder what I find is that card classified as an 8 OC or a 9 OC is likely to be pack fresh but for centering. Just the way I remember them. If they are mildly OC and graded 8 or 9 I am just fine with them, especially at the price I can get them. Here is an example of a card that is right in my wheelhouse:



The Carew has the sort of mild centering issue that most of my cards had, and the uneven border of the piping around the team name makes it less visually offensive to me. I paid a lot less for the card than for a comparable card with more wear, so it fits me just fine. If the card is from a set that is prone to centering issues, I am even less inclined to freak out about it. The 1968 hockey issue had really poor centering. This Beliveau card is perfect for me and was a fraction of the cost of a straight 9:



The Dr. J on the right is my favorite ever example. The back of the card is OC but who cares?



A lesser grade is likely to have additional wear to it that has less appeal to me than the OC. If I am looking at a 6-6.5-7 my expectation is that the card will have some corner issues or other wear. In that case I look for the best centered cards I can find, trading off the centering for the wear. An example:



In the final analysis, the question also depends on what your priorities are as a collector. I am not going after cards from my youth to make money, I am collecting them for my own enjoyment. The goal is to have as many of those cards as I can afford that are appealing and evocative to me, not to have a few specimens that someone has determined meet some standard of perfection that I don't really ascribe to. Not to say that I don't occasionally get seduced by a really striking card in a high grade holder; I do:



I just try to shop where the money isn't going so I can indulge my habit at the cost of a bratwurst lunch rather than a steak dinner.

[tschock]

Adam,

Totally agree about the overall eye appeal. Similarly, it is more distracting to me if the OC is L/R rather than T/B, with a bottom 'heavy' border (usually) being the least distracting.

[DBesse27]

I'm not a centering guy, I was just explaining qualifiers to the uninitiated. I too am looking for pack fresh cards. When I was a kid nobody cared about condition and later, when we started to talk about condition, it was all about corners. I'm still a corners guy. I own about 500 Yaz cards and this is one of my faves:

[camaro69]

I have never understood the fascination of people and their dis-like for cards that are OC. When these cards were were made 50 or more years ago I do not think that the makers cared one way or the other what they looked like.I do understand why they draw a premium because likely only 1 in 100 are truly well centered.So if you are of the age that you opened packs of 52 topps baseball or 51 Parkhurst hockey than I am pretty sure that as a 7-10 year old kid you probably did not care much about centering.I am pretty sure it was all about your favorite player or team.I believe this centering thing has all become relevant when collectors turned dealers realized they could get a lot more for these cards that are centered well.Than grading took over and bang we have this what we have today.
I know for myself that I have no concerns what so ever with the condition of any card that I as a collector have absolutely no control over.Things that happened at the factory so to speak.Things like centering,rough cuts.But problems caused by us as collectors like surface wear,dinged corners,creases,tape glue writing etc..than those do bother me.
I know that I have a PSA 9(oc) OPC and Topps Gretzky rookie.I know that I would be very lucky to get $4-$5 for the pair.But when I look at the PSA10 Gretzky that just sold for nearly a half million with the power saw cut edges,60-40 centering and more printer spots than I can count.I will be very content to be happy with my 9(oc) that has 100% better edges,no printer spotting and perfect corners.But that is just me.My eyes can adjust to the off centering but my bank account could never adjust to the withdrawal to purchase that PSA 10 Gretzky

[irv]

Originally Posted by camaro69

I have never understood the fascination of people and their dis-like for cards that are OC. When these cards were were made 50 or more years ago I do not think that the makers cared one way or the other what they looked like.I do understand why they draw a premium because likely only 1 in 100 are truly well centered.So if you are of the age that you opened packs of 52 topps baseball or 51 Parkhurst hockey than I am pretty sure that as a 7-10 year old kid you probably did not care much about centering.I am pretty sure it was all about your favorite player or team.I believe this centering thing has all become relevant when collectors turned dealers realized they could get a lot more for these cards that are centered well.Than grading took over and bang we have this what we have today.
I know for myself that I have no concerns what so ever with the condition of any card that I as a collector have absolutely no control over.Things that happened at the factory so to speak.Things like centering,rough cuts.But problems caused by us as collectors like surface wear,dinged corners,creases,tape glue writing etc..than those do bother me.
I know that I have a PSA 9(oc) OPC and Topps Gretzky rookie.I know that I would be very lucky to get $4-$5 for the pair.But when I look at the PSA10 Gretzky that just sold for nearly a half million with the power saw cut edges,60-40 centering and more printer spots than I can count.I will be very content to be happy with my 9(oc) that has 100% better edges,no printer spotting and perfect corners.But that is just me.My eyes can adjust to the off centering but my bank account could never adjust to the withdrawal to purchase that PSA 10 Gretzky

Good way to put it, Winston.

I too care far less about centering than I do creases. Dinged corners are one thing but creases that go across a player face etc, bug me the most.

You'll see in my Flickr link below that I own many OC 52 Topps cards. Granted, this is how they were given to me, but when searching for 52's to add to my collection, centering is the least of my concerns. Check out my Zernial card that I recently purchased. Sure, I'd like a better centered copy, but that will come someday if I feel like spending the money.

I have upgraded my Fannin card only because the creases went across his face, or a good portion of the card. I have a few more like that and will likely upgrade those someday as well, but as far as upgrading my OC cards,,,, those can wait as they bother me the least.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by camaro69

I have never understood the fascination of people and their dis-like for cards that are OC. When these cards were were made 50 or more years ago I do not think that the makers cared one way or the other what they looked like.I do understand why they draw a premium because likely only 1 in 100 are truly well centered.So if you are of the age that you opened packs of 52 topps baseball or 51 Parkhurst hockey than I am pretty sure that as a 7-10 year old kid you probably did not care much about centering.I am pretty sure it was all about your favorite player or team.I believe this centering thing has all become relevant when collectors turned dealers realized they could get a lot more for these cards that are centered well.Than grading took over and bang we have this what we have today.
I know for myself that I have no concerns what so ever with the condition of any card that I as a collector have absolutely no control over.Things that happened at the factory so to speak.Things like centering,rough cuts.But problems caused by us as collectors like surface wear,dinged corners,creases,tape glue writing etc..than those do bother me.
I know that I have a PSA 9(oc) OPC and Topps Gretzky rookie.I know that I would be very lucky to get $4-$5 for the pair.But when I look at the PSA10 Gretzky that just sold for nearly a half million with the power saw cut edges,60-40 centering and more printer spots than I can count.I will be very content to be happy with my 9(oc) that has 100% better edges,no printer spotting and perfect corners.But that is just me.My eyes can adjust to the off centering but my bank account could never adjust to the withdrawal to purchase that PSA 10 Gretzky

I prefer centered cards because that's the way they were supposed to look. OC and MC cards might have come that way from the factory, just like cards that have print defects or poor registration. But they're still flawed. I'd rather pay more for a centered card with great eye appeal, or find one with a lower technical grade.

Many vintage cards are like small works of art. You wouldn't hang a painting on the wall at an angle, or with a frame with one side bigger than the other . Why settle for an off centered card?

[onlyvintage62]

Originally Posted by tschock

Adam,

Totally agree about the overall eye appeal. Similarly, it is more distracting to me if the OC is L/R rather than T/B, with a bottom 'heavy' border (usually) being the least distracting.

What I will never understand is how a card that has a rough cut is not downgraded.

[glynparson]

Their grading does reflect it you just don't seem to understand it. A 9 oc for example is not a 9 so you saying it sells for a third of a 9 so why put a 9 but it's not a 9 it's a 9 oc. Meaning it has all the attributes of a pack fresh card except this one flaw. It is more not less descriptive by having such criteria no one that knows what they are doing would expect it to sell in the same neighborhood for the record Manny 9oc cards sell at far less than 1/3 of unqualified 9 cards and that's ok that's the market. If you prefer just the straight grade you can request that and they will grade based on that. Some qualifiers they don't allow you to opt out of but oc is one you can.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by onlyvintage62

What I will never understand is how a card that has a rough cut is not downgraded.

I didn't realize they were downgrading cards because of that. That was very common on many of the 60's and 70's cards. How much does it knock it down?

[DBesse27]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I didn't realize they were downgrading cards because of that. That was very common on many of the 60's and 70's cards. How much does it knock it down?

Read his post again. He said they do NOT downgrade for rough cuts.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by onlyvintage62

What I will never understand is how a card that has a rough cut is not downgraded.

Depends on the issue; many O-Pee-Chee cards were cut direct from the factory with a rough cut because of their machinery. Those are normally not discounted for being rough cut, and in fact, are looked at positively since they couldn't be trimmed. PSA will most likely grade non-rough OPCs from sets that had that as the overarching production process and consider them altered even if they meet the minimum size for the issue.

That's why you'll see Gretzky 1979 OPCs from uncut sheets go to Beckett to be graded, since they grade cards cut recently from sheets. Having a rough cut proves (effectively) that it was cut at the time the card was produced and inserted into packs.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Depends on the issue; many O-Pee-Chee cards were cut direct from the factory with a rough cut because of their machinery. Those are normally not discounted for being rough cut, and in fact, are looked at positively since they couldn't be trimmed. PSA will most likely grade non-rough OPCs from sets that had that as the overarching production process and consider them altered even if they meet the minimum size for the issue.

That's why you'll see Gretzky 1979 OPCs from uncut sheets go to Beckett to be graded, since they grade cards cut recently from sheets. Having a rough cut proves (effectively) that it was cut at the time the card was produced and inserted into packs.

I understand what you are saying, especially when it comes to issues that are mostly roughly cut. But let's take 1974 Topps for example. You can find quite a few of these cards with rough cuts, yet the same cards with sharp cuts. It does seem inconsistent to me that PSA (or others) would notate a card as OC but not as RC (rough cut), as they are both due to poor QC during the cutting of the card. Just my 2 cents, which don't amount to a hill of beans...

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here is my completely idiosyncratic, totally personal, experiential take on this question, which is one I've kicked around with colleagues who are far more PSA-centric than me:

I look for high grade OC cards with eye appeal because that is how I remember them from the pack. Most cards from my childhood (the 1970s) were somewhat OC out of the pack. It doesn't bother me the way it bothers collectors who were kids in later decades when the precision of card manufacturing was just a whole lot better and who've since moved into older cards.

As I shop for cards from my collecting era in a PSA holder what I find is that card classified as an 8 OC or a 9 OC is likely to be pack fresh but for centering. Just the way I remember them. If they are mildly OC and graded 8 or 9 I am just fine with them, especially at the price I can get them. Here is an example of a card that is right in my wheelhouse:



The Carew has the sort of mild centering issue that most of my cards had, and the uneven border of the piping around the team name makes it less visually offensive to me. I paid a lot less for the card than for a comparable card with more wear, so it fits me just fine. If the card is from a set that is prone to centering issues, I am even less inclined to freak out about it. The 1968 hockey issue had really poor centering. This Beliveau card is perfect for me and was a fraction of the cost of a straight 9:



The Dr. J on the right is my favorite ever example. The back of the card is OC but who cares?



A lesser grade is likely to have additional wear to it that has less appeal to me than the OC. If I am looking at a 6-6.5-7 my expectation is that the card will have some corner issues or other wear. In that case I look for the best centered cards I can find, trading off the centering for the wear. An example:



In the final analysis, the question also depends on what your priorities are as a collector. I am not going after cards from my youth to make money, I am collecting them for my own enjoyment. The goal is to have as many of those cards as I can afford that are appealing and evocative to me, not to have a few specimens that someone has determined meet some standard of perfection that I don't really ascribe to. Not to say that I don't occasionally get seduced by a really striking card in a high grade holder; I do:



I just try to shop where the money isn't going so I can indulge my habit at the cost of a bratwurst lunch rather than a steak dinner.

Great post. And agreed in a lot of ways. Being a kid and just having a certain card at all...say a Steve Carlton rookie in okay shape...was a true delight. I tend to seek out high condition cards post war but a little OC or tilt doesn't make me completely disregard...because, deep down 10 year old me is in there saying "wow, that's a Steve Carlton rookie!!"

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

Being a kid and just having a certain card at all...say a Steve Carlton rookie in okay shape...was a true delight. I tend to seek out high condition cards post war but a little OC or tilt doesn't make me completely disregard...because, deep down 10 year old me is in there saying "wow, that's a Steve Carlton rookie!!"

Don't say this forum doesn't have influence...for some reason ever since I first saw this thread some time back, I couldn't stop thinking about this comment. Back some years ago (I wasn't a kid, but felt the same way) I had the Carlton rookie, but got rid of it at some point. So, this came in the mail today. Wow, a Steve Carlton rookie!!" Not o/c, but lower grade and cool nonetheless!

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Don't say this forum doesn't have influence...for some reason ever since I first saw this thread some time back, I couldn't stop thinking about this comment. Back some years ago (I wasn't a kid, but felt the same way) I had the Carlton rookie, but got rid of it at some point. So, this came in the mail today. Wow, a Steve Carlton rookie!!" Not o/c, but lower grade and cool nonetheless!

Of course, I love this post.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[jason.1969]

Am curious what you guys think is better if you're trying to sell a card. I requested no qualifiers when I submitted this to PSA and ended up with a 2.5. I've definitely seen uglier specimens than this get 4s, so I'm wondering if I would have been better off with something like a 4 (O/C).

Ted.JPG

[swarmee]

Well, they gave it a 2.5 due to the wear, not the centering. So there must be some creasing that's not visible or back damage. Presents really well, and it's better for the registry and for resale value (IMO) to be in the 2.5 slab.