PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[steve B]

I believe it's more likely one of the following

Peter being told something in confidence and not being the sort of person to break that confidence.

Sometimes we all learn "stuff" and it's possible disclosing "stuff" could result in a lawsuit. Which would be expensive even if there was solid evidence the info was true. Without that- and getting some "stuff" in writing is not easy, it could become very expensive and/or time consuming. Not being stupid he decides to avoid an unprovable direct accusation.

Steve B

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

Re-read this and pretend you are someone else.

It sounds like: "I have great sources of information no one else has and never will and I will not tell you what you want to know because I do not feel like it, and you should just trust me when I say, I know the truth."

You should have thrown in a "nanny nanny boo boo" at the end to augment the legitimacy of what you were saying in that post.

[mechanicalman]

Does anyone else keep checking the February Pick-Ups thread in hopes of seeing someone post a '36 Goudey WWG DiMaggio PSA 7? That would be epic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve it's #1. I get that people don't like it, that it comes across as obnoxious. At the same time, I did not want to let stand the suggestion David made (understandably) that it may not have been practical for PWCC to disclose this having learned it for the first time mid-auction.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steve it's #1. I get that people don't like it, that it comes across as obnoxious. At the same time, I did not want to let stand the suggestion David made (understandably) that it may not have been practical for PWCC to disclose this having learned it for the first time mid-auction.

I for one have no problem with it at all.

Steve B

[packs]

The hobby doesn't have an issue with restoration though. Cards that have been restored (i.e. re-backed, re-colored, re-built, etc.) are given the grade of Authentic.

[Huysmans]

Just OT and to lighten the mood a bit....

How many here know Joe D's lifetime batting average? .... without checking of course! 😁

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Just OT and to lighten the mood a bit....

How many here know Joe D's lifetime batting average? .... without checking of course! ��

.325 or something like that.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

.325 or something like that.

Winner!!

Thanks Peter.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Just OT and to lighten the mood a bit....

How many here know Joe D's lifetime batting average? .... without checking of course! 😁

.325--without checking!

Nice mood lightener,

Larry

[steve B]

That's just it though. An uncirculated coin professionally cleaned is still graded as uncirculated. Old posters are routinely backed with linen, and not deacidifying and backing usually brings a lower price. Stamps with hinge remnants are if used totally fine if those are soaked off. Proper cleaning and preservation are not generally penalized in most hobbies. Possibly because some of the stuff can survive far more than old paper can. Possibly because they either outgrew or never developed the whole "my item is better than yours because some expert says so." attitude. Yeah, condition matters, but in time for some items that statement may become "I had the best surviving copy, and because of some competition I left it "original" and now it's pretty much ruined."

Steve B

[steve B]

I've very mixed feelings on this whole thing.

I think the original toning was from being next to acidic paper for some amount of time. Over more time that would damage the card, (Still might because it's not all gone) The process for removing that involves either a bleaching agent or a deacidifier.

Lots of good general info here
http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa010.shtml

Any of that should be disclosed, and should be part of the items history which should be included in any transfer.

But it won't, because of the stigma attached to even appropriate conservation that all gets lumped under the heading of "alteration". That stigma affects value in out hobby, perhaps far more than in others.

So let me ask a different sort of question. The answer matters less than the thinking behind it, although I have a preferred answer.

If I had the card. And posted it here raw asking the question "I have this card that's got fairly mild damage from acid exposure that will only worsen over time eventually destroying it. It's a fairly important and valuable card, and I think it should be deacidified so that it will last another few generations. But I'm concerned about how that will affect the value. What should I do?"

---------------------------------






My preference is for doing the conservation. If it's done professionally there should be no damage, and aside from earlier pictures, no physical indication that it's been done. Without conservation, we as a hobby are essentially condemning some of the best items to a premature destruction.

TPG will probably NEVER be realistically able to work with conservation vs eventual damaging originality as long as they operate the way they have. And as long as genuine conservation is looked down on by the hobby in general.

Nearly every other hobby accepts disclosed conservation/restoration as long as it's done appropriately. Some hobbies ignore some conservation that's not disclosed. Coins- nearly every really bright looking uncirculated silver coin has been cleaned. Other Silver objects- basically have to be polished occasionally to remove tarnish. If it's not brown/black it's been cleaned. Maybe it's time for us to do the same.

And I don't buy the "It's a PSA 7 so it's A PSA 7 and nobody should question that" line. Grades should always be questioned if they seem off.

Steve Birmingham

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by steve B

If I had the card. And posted it here raw asking the question "I have this card that's got fairly mild damage from acid exposure that will only worsen over time eventually destroying it. It's a fairly important and valuable card, and I think it should be deacidified so that it will last another few generations. But I'm concerned about how that will affect the value. What should I do?"

I would say if you're that worried about it, you should sell it before doing any work on it. And I would say you're paranoid. Because life expectancy of baseball cards is longer than humans.

[ullmandds]

While I think grading kinda sucks...especially PSA...it seems that the times they are a changing. Perhaps the demand for some cards is just so great...combined with an apathy or lack of awareness of altered cards that are in slabs. Cards are now a commodity and the slab is all that matters!

Alterations have become acceptable in this beloved hobby just like lots of others!

Long live the fuc$ing slab!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I would say if you're that worried about it, you should sell it before doing any work on it. And I would say you're paranoid. Because life expectancy of baseball cards is longer than humans.

I've seen and owned things that are made from similar stock to the WWG cards that were poorly cared for. Some are fine, some have degraded noticeably within about half my life time (So far)

If all that matters is the money you make now....Great. Do whatever you like. The next generation thanks you - Or not.

If you actually give a _ about the item as anything more than a source of profit, proper storage and occasional conservation with full disclosure are proper.

Why many of us worry about storage and holders but never about much else is always a puzzle.

Steve B

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe it's more likely one of the following

Peter being told something in confidence and not being the sort of person to break that confidence.

Sometimes we all learn "stuff" and it's possible disclosing "stuff" could result in a lawsuit. Which would be expensive even if there was solid evidence the info was true. Without that- and getting some "stuff" in writing is not easy, it could become very expensive and/or time consuming. Not being stupid he decides to avoid an unprovable direct accusation.

Steve B

Then why say anything at all? Just say nothing rather a really ambiguous statement that can never be corroborated? To satisfy the need of proving you are "in the know"? All you do is provoke more conversation that down a path that you promised against. You might as well just say it at that point. You already let the cat out of the bag if it is true and if not you just throw your reputation on the line.

[BeanTown]

I thought I read with an earlier post in this thread that Brent with PWCC was going to chime in on this?

[orly57]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I thought I read with an earlier post in this thread that Brent with PWCC was going to chime in on this?

He is standing by post #85 apparently.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I thought I read with an earlier post in this thread that Brent with PWCC was going to chime in on this?

I think he kinda did in Post #57.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

I think he kinda did in Post #57.

No he didn't. someone pasted a private message into the thread. Not sure if Brent knew it was going to be shared. i sure hope Sean asked Brent's permission to post that message.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

No he didn't. someone pasted a private message into the thread. Not sure if Brent knew it was going to be shared. i sure hope Sean asked Brent's permission to post that message.

I am pretty sure he doesn't need his permission. It looks like there was no privacy statement about intended recipients or sharing with others and it was a quote, not an actual copy.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Just a thought, but there are some in the camp of 'buy the card, not the holder'

However there is also a camp of 'buy the holder, not the card'

Thus, if its a legit PSA 7, wouldnt you agree that if somone was buying the holder, they care getting what they paid for?

People do sell the holder not the card which I have posted many times. Again, I made an earlier post about if there was a wrinkle that was pressed out and could come back again, I would think its dishonest for that not to be in the description. Thus, not saying i agree with what transpired with the card in this thread.

I am just saying that i believe there are people out there that just buy the holder. I know Peter will then say 'if it doesnt matter, why did the seller not disclose it' Well, i think to make everything uniform and you are in the business of selling holders, you wont go though the history of grading of a card with every card which would save a lot of time and headaches. If you miss some important history on one card for example, then you have to worry about a return, but if its just buyer beware on all cards and up to due dilligence of the buyer that makes it much easier for the seller.

Buyers who do their due dilligence wont pay as much for certain cards etc. Most sellers sell the holder and not the card. Thats why most ebay listings say 'no returns on graded cards'.

Now if this was a RAW card that was fixed up, then I submit any repair history MUST be disclosed.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe it's more likely one of the following

Peter being told something in confidence and not being the sort of person to break that confidence.

Sometimes we all learn "stuff" and it's possible disclosing "stuff" could result in a lawsuit. Which would be expensive even if there was solid evidence the info was true. Without that- and getting some "stuff" in writing is not easy, it could become very expensive and/or time consuming. Not being stupid he decides to avoid an unprovable direct accusation.

Steve B

+1, hit the nail right on the head. If Peter makes such a representation, having interacted with him, I would not hesitate to believe it. My other posts re this card have assumed that it was simply water-soaked, which I have no problem with. Other "reconditioning," such as building up corners, repairing paper loss, removing creases, and trimming and the like are obviously another matter entirely. They require transparency, and should obviously be disclosed.

Best to all,

Larry