PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe it's more likely one of the following

Peter being told something in confidence and not being the sort of person to break that confidence.

Sometimes we all learn "stuff" and it's possible disclosing "stuff" could result in a lawsuit. Which would be expensive even if there was solid evidence the info was true. Without that- and getting some "stuff" in writing is not easy, it could become very expensive and/or time consuming. Not being stupid he decides to avoid an unprovable direct accusation.

Steve B

Then why say anything at all? Just say nothing rather a really ambiguous statement that can never be corroborated? To satisfy the need of proving you are "in the know"? All you do is provoke more conversation that down a path that you promised against. You might as well just say it at that point. You already let the cat out of the bag if it is true and if not you just throw your reputation on the line.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by orly57

David, you seem very angry in your defense of card doctoring, or psa, or Pwcc, or whatever indefensible thing it is you are defending. I was clear that I don't mind buying a card I knew was soaked so long as it has a grade. I personally don't know how to soak cards, nor do I have the balls to try it. I said it doesnt bother me. But I draw the line when buyers aren't made aware by sellers WHO KNOW that the card was doctored. And yes, the amount matters! The fact that some guy now owns a 50k card that, thanks to this blog, will live in infamy, pisses me off. It is criminal. And if Brent didn't know before he listed the item, he most certainly knew BEFORE IT SOLD. Perhaps on the next blog post you can defend Pete Rose or the DH Rule.

No anger on my part at all. I'm not the one on a witch hunt here. By your own admission, you're the one that's pissed. The situation doesn't piss me off. It pisses you off, so don't say that I seem angry.

And if you truly believe it's criminal, report Brent to eBay, law enforcement or whoever you need to in order to stop this criminal activity.

You need to go back and re-read post #85. John nailed it on the head with his post.

[BeanTown]

I thought I read with an earlier post in this thread that Brent with PWCC was going to chime in on this?

[orly57]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I thought I read with an earlier post in this thread that Brent with PWCC was going to chime in on this?

He is standing by post #85 apparently.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I thought I read with an earlier post in this thread that Brent with PWCC was going to chime in on this?

I think he kinda did in Post #57.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

I think he kinda did in Post #57.

No he didn't. someone pasted a private message into the thread. Not sure if Brent knew it was going to be shared. i sure hope Sean asked Brent's permission to post that message.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

No he didn't. someone pasted a private message into the thread. Not sure if Brent knew it was going to be shared. i sure hope Sean asked Brent's permission to post that message.

I am pretty sure he doesn't need his permission. It looks like there was no privacy statement about intended recipients or sharing with others and it was a quote, not an actual copy.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Just a thought, but there are some in the camp of 'buy the card, not the holder'

However there is also a camp of 'buy the holder, not the card'

Thus, if its a legit PSA 7, wouldnt you agree that if somone was buying the holder, they care getting what they paid for?

People do sell the holder not the card which I have posted many times. Again, I made an earlier post about if there was a wrinkle that was pressed out and could come back again, I would think its dishonest for that not to be in the description. Thus, not saying i agree with what transpired with the card in this thread.

I am just saying that i believe there are people out there that just buy the holder. I know Peter will then say 'if it doesnt matter, why did the seller not disclose it' Well, i think to make everything uniform and you are in the business of selling holders, you wont go though the history of grading of a card with every card which would save a lot of time and headaches. If you miss some important history on one card for example, then you have to worry about a return, but if its just buyer beware on all cards and up to due dilligence of the buyer that makes it much easier for the seller.

Buyers who do their due dilligence wont pay as much for certain cards etc. Most sellers sell the holder and not the card. Thats why most ebay listings say 'no returns on graded cards'.

Now if this was a RAW card that was fixed up, then I submit any repair history MUST be disclosed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really? Hell, the seller could just show an image of the flip. Trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, soaked, who cares, irrelevant, all trumped by the flip.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really? Hell, the seller could just show an image of the flip. Trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, soaked, who cares, irrelevant, all trumped by the flip.

Peter it is nice to see you are coming around to the reality of card collecting.

[Rookiemonster]

Nothing to "FLIP" about ......... just ten of thousands of dollars lol .

[Neal]

.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really? Hell, the seller could just show an image of the flip. Trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, soaked, who cares, irrelevant, all trumped by the flip.

Peter, you really don't follow your own advice though. Recently you posted a WTB for a '65 Mays in PSA 7.5 or 8. If it's not about the flip, then why only PSA and why only a 7.5 or 8? I have a gorgeous BVG 7 that I'll sell you that probably blows away any PSA 7 or 8. Are you willing to look at it, or are you resolved to only PSA 7.5 or 8?

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, you really don't follow your own advice though. Recently you posted a WTB for a '65 Mays in PSA 7.5 or 8. If it's not about the flip, then why only PSA and why only a 7.5 or 8? I have a gorgeous BVG 7 that I'll sell you that probably blows away any PSA 7 or 8. Are you willing to look at it, or are you resolved to only PSA 7.5 or 8?

My whole collection is in PSA with a minor amount under other another companies plastic. Grading certain cards can be very costly, so often times it is just easier to get it in your holder of choice from the start.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

My whole collection is in PSA with a minor amount under other another companies plastic. Grading certain cards can be very costly, so often times it is just easier to get it in your holder of choice from the start.

I really don't collect many graded cards, but I see your point. However, that still makes it all about the flip. So, my point is still valid. It's kind of hard to criticize somebody else for buying the flip when the one criticizing it does the same.

Jake made a very good point. The buyer probably really didn't care what the card looked like as long as the flip said PSA 7.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, you really don't follow your own advice though. Recently you posted a WTB for a '65 Mays in PSA 7.5 or 8. If it's not about the flip, then why only PSA and why only a 7.5 or 8? I have a gorgeous BVG 7 that I'll sell you that probably blows away any PSA 7 or 8. Are you willing to look at it, or are you resolved to only PSA 7.5 or 8?

David, I own cards in all of the major holders. I prefer PSA generally because for the most part their grading standards are similar to mine and on a $200 60s card I am not that worried about alteration particularly if the card doesn't set up any red flags. So I don't see that post as at all inconsistent with my ultimate buy the card philosophy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, I own cards in all of the major holders. I prefer PSA generally because for the most part their grading standards are similar to mine and on a $200 60s card I am not that worried about alteration particularly if the card doesn't set up any red flags. So I don't see that post as at all inconsistent with my ultimate buy the card philosophy.

When you post a WTB (and you've posted multiple the same way) requesting a specific TPG and/or a specific grade, you are buying the flip and not the card. Otherwise what difference would the TPG or grade even matter? Why not just post "WTB high grade '65 Mays"?

This started because of your sarcastic comment, "Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really?" Yet, you do the same thing with your WTBs. Maybe you don't see the hypocrisy in that. I'm pretty sure others do though.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really? Hell, the seller could just show an image of the flip. Trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, soaked, who cares, irrelevant, all trumped by the flip.

correct. for some who think the price of a card would be reflecting the lowest priced 7 but its a 7, they wont care at all what the card looks like as long as its a 7 and they are paying the cheapest possible price to get a 7 in their mind

[vintagetoppsguy]

The bottom line is this. PSA said it was a 7...twice now. I think most of us agree (and I've already said it too) it doesn't look like a 7. To most of us, it looks over graded. The PSA apologists can't blame this one on a "mechanical error". So what do you want to happen at this point? PSA is not going to change the grade. What good is b!tching about it doing? Let me ask again, what do you want to happen at this point???

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The bottom line is this. PSA said it was a 7...twice now. I think most of us agree (and I've already said it too) it doesn't look like a 7. To most of us, it looks over graded. The PSA apologists can't blame this one on a "mechanical error". So what do you want to happen at this point? PSA is not going to change the grade. What good is b!tching about it doing? Let me ask again, what do you want to happen at this point???

do we really know psa re-reviewed this card? seemed like a statement made to appease especially in light of no response from the AH?

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I really don't collect many graded cards, but I see your point. However, that still makes it all about the flip. So, my point is still valid. It's kind of hard to criticize somebody else for buying the flip when the one criticizing it does the same.

Jake made a very good point. The buyer probably really didn't care what the card looked like as long as the flip said PSA 7.

No. It actually doesn't. You are twisting my words without thinking about them to make what you said more valid.

It can easily be about the cards, but for the presentation. There are plenty of people on here that like SGC because of the way their card looks in the holder, regardless of what the "flip" says the grade is. Additionally, the grading standards are different. Requesting a grading company and a grade when looking to buy something is just as important as conveying an accurate description in a want to sell ad.

"High grade" is subjective. PSA 7.5 is way less subjective. It happens to be the easiest way to put a range on what you are looking for with respect to quality. Would you prefer that everyone type out: I want a card with no less than 40/60 centering left to right, 80/20 top to bottom, clean registration, medium white boarders, no paper loss, somewhat centered on the back, good registration, strong corners?

What constitutes a strong corner, how can you explain the difference between a 6 corner and a 7 corner to someone in a buy thread? I bet if you look at a 6 and a 7 you know what it looks like though, right? You can say all of that with just a simple "PSA 7.5"

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

No. It actually doesn't. You are twisting my words without thinking about them to make what you said more valid.

How am I twisting your words when my comment was directed at Peter?

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

It can easily be about the cards, but for the presentation. There are plenty of people on here that like SGC because of the way their card looks in the holder, regardless of what the "flip" says the grade is.

Duh! But my point is, when you're looking for a certain card in a certain TPG case with a certain grade, then you're buying the flip and not the cards.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

do we really know psa re-reviewed this card? seemed like a statement made to appease especially in light of no response from the AH?

Nope. Then again, do we really know Brent knew the card's history before the auction. That's what I find kind of funny about this whole thread - all the speculation.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How am I twisting your words when my comment was directed at Peter?


Duh! But my point is, when you're looking for a certain card in a certain TPG case with a certain grade, then you're buying the flip and not the cards.

And I will say again, no, no it doesn't mean that and for above, you quoted me in post 215 when you made the comment.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

And I will say again, no, no it doesn't mean that and for above, you quoted me in post 215 when you made the comment.

You win. I'm not going to argue on something so petty.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

I don't care about its past, it's a PSA 7 now and I'll take it!!!

It's like a fat broad that loses 75 pounds and becomes hot.

Highest graded example (last time I checked) by PSA of a truly iconic player and card. IMHO, this is the direction the hobby will definitely be headed in (and only 27 or so total graded by PSA). Rare and significant in the best condition available! This assumes that the card was merely water-soaked, as I agree that other more intensive card-altering procedures require transparency.

May your collecting bring you immense joy,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

Right !!! It's a darn POP 1 PSA 7. None higher!!!
Why are we even attempting to knock this card?
Any one of us would kill to have this.

+1 there. Now if only my (ungraded) ExMt R312 DiMag rookie would only follow suit (and PSA hasn't graded too many more of those)!

Highest regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

People get their panties in a wad when there is a lack of transparency. That is understandable. I have no issue with the cleaner card. It looks great. And I don't blame PSA one bit. I have been told by one of the best graders I know, who has had personal cards conserved and cleaned, said there was literally NO way he could tell anything was done to his cards. It isn't PSA's fault if there is nothing to see.

.

+1. Hard to debate that point, plus, IMO, restoration is coming (but I do believe it should be transparent if we're talking about building up corners and restoring paper loss).

Best wishes,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe it's more likely one of the following

Peter being told something in confidence and not being the sort of person to break that confidence.

Sometimes we all learn "stuff" and it's possible disclosing "stuff" could result in a lawsuit. Which would be expensive even if there was solid evidence the info was true. Without that- and getting some "stuff" in writing is not easy, it could become very expensive and/or time consuming. Not being stupid he decides to avoid an unprovable direct accusation.

Steve B

+1, hit the nail right on the head. If Peter makes such a representation, having interacted with him, I would not hesitate to believe it. My other posts re this card have assumed that it was simply water-soaked, which I have no problem with. Other "reconditioning," such as building up corners, repairing paper loss, removing creases, and trimming and the like are obviously another matter entirely. They require transparency, and should obviously be disclosed.

Best to all,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Just OT and to lighten the mood a bit....

How many here know Joe D's lifetime batting average? .... without checking of course! 😁

.325--without checking!

Nice mood lightener,

Larry

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, you really don't follow your own advice though. Recently you posted a WTB for a '65 Mays in PSA 7.5 or 8. If it's not about the flip, then why only PSA and why only a 7.5 or 8? I have a gorgeous BVG 7 that I'll sell you that probably blows away any PSA 7 or 8. Are you willing to look at it, or are you resolved to only PSA 7.5 or 8?

Personally I have seen nice cards in BVG that I won't touch. I don't trust them on vintage and a lot of big collectors and dealers don't either. That is why you don't see them sell very often nor for high prices. Plus, if you collect PSA cards only that would negate wanting any SGC or BVG holders. It is also deflecting away from the real issue with this card in question which is the reason for 23 pages of discussion.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by KendallCat

Plus, if you collect PSA cards only that would negate wanting any SGC or BVG holders.

Bingo! This is the point I was trying to make. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Peter, made a comment (in bold below) trying to be sarcastic that it's in a PSA holder and that's all that matters. Well, maybe the buyer only collects PSA and really doesn't care about the card as long as the grade isn't too far off. But I just find it a little hypocritical to blame the buyer if that was his only justification for buying the card when he (Peter) requests to buy only PSA cards himself (not considering BVG, SGC, etc). But like i said, it's not worth arguing about.

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How am I twisting your words when my comment was directed at Peter?



Duh! But my point is, when you're looking for a certain card in a certain TPG case with a certain grade, then you're buying the flip and not the cards.

You are not necessarily buying the holder if you are looking at the card and not just buying the first card that comes along. I may want a card in a certain grade, but I am still going to look at the card. If I don't like the looks of it or if I think it is overgraded, I won't buy it.

You really don't care what the card looks like? That seems silly to me. I care what my cards look like. If I was in the market for this card and I saw a centered 6/6.5, I would buy it over this card.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rats60

You are not necessarily buying the holder if you are looking at the card and not just buying the first card that comes along. I may want a card in a certain grade, but I am still going to look at the card. If I don't like the looks of it or if I think it is overgraded, I won't buy it.

You really don't care what the card looks like? That seems silly to me. I care what my cards look like. If I was in the market for this card and I saw a centered 6/6.5, I would buy it over this card.

I would think there is a very small % of buyers buying cards regardless of how they look...only for the grade...especially cards like this one. Registry set collectors...may be a different story.

The "market" seems to be correcting itself regarding buying the card not the holder...some lower graded cards...especially if nicely centered are selling for more than their higher graded counterpart...even in PSA holders.

Does PSA suck...YES! Do some people buy the holder not the card...yes...but I think most are atleast looking at the cards and making decisions that they can live with.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by rats60

You are not necessarily buying the holder if you are looking at the card and not just buying the first card that comes along. I may want a card in a certain grade, but I am still going to look at the card. If I don't like the looks of it or if I think it is overgraded, I won't buy it.

You really don't care what the card looks like? That seems silly to me. I care what my cards look like. If I was in the market for this card and I saw a centered 6/6.5, I would buy it over this card.

I am pretty sure he does not know what he is talking about and is just typing words.

Honestly, half of what was said is moronic. No offense.

[botn]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

But like i said, it's not worth arguing about.

Are ya sure about that?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

I am pretty sure he does not know what he is talking about and is just typing words.

Honestly, half of what was said is moronic. No offense.

What's moronic is not complying with board rules. Put your name in your post. And if Phillip Abbott is your real name, put it in there anyway . No offense.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nope. Then again, do we really know Brent knew the card's history before the auction. That's what I find kind of funny about this whole thread - all the speculation.

I am not speculating at all. You may choose not to believe me because I have chosen not to be specific about my sources of information, and as mentioned before I get the reaction some folks have to that, while others understand where I am coming from, but don't confuse that with speculation.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...but don't confuse that with speculation.

Fair enough. Replace "speculstion" with "information that can't be corroborated"

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Fair enough. Replace "speculstion" with "information that can't be corroborated"

So what is everyone's opinion on this situation? Without having to go back thru 100's of posts....Thanks

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

So what is everyone's opinion on this situation? Without having to go back thru 100's of posts....Thanks

Depends on who you ask. Personally, I think post #85 sums it up well for me.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Depends on who you ask. Personally, I think post #85 sums it up well for me.

Yep post 85 is a gem. A flipper buys a altered card from a known shiller and is pissed that people think there is something wrong with that. The gall of some people is simply amazing.

[ullmandds]

yes post #85 sums it up! someone get Kevin the cliff notes!

[aloondilana]

Are you guys seriously still crying about this card?
The auction is over. It got about $7500 less than I expected, maybe this thread had something to do with it.
Yes I flip cards, is there anything wrong with that? I read some posts that are attempting to knock me because of this.

I do what I do, and you guys can worship your beat up t206 Walter Johnson's.

Guys, really there is a lot more to life than whining about what grade a card should be or whether washing a card should not allow to get a numerical grade.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who even cares what the card looks like? If PSA says it's a 7, then what difference does it make really? Hell, the seller could just show an image of the flip. Trimmed, recolored, pressed, bleached, soaked, who cares, irrelevant, all trumped by the flip.

I don't rely on grading or buy flips over cards and I see your point in this discussion completely.

I think it only matters in this circumstance due to PWCC's return policy:
"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is NOT a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC."

it also matters because if the card shows no signs of chemical cleaning and we are only going on assumption of wrongdoing it does not meet a burden of proof in my mind to start a coup. If you have insider knowledge of what took place could you reveal without sources the method you were told cleaned this card or if you were just told it was cleaned in an untoward way?

If proof exists that is concrete and physical that other than natural items were used, than I think it would weigh my opinion heavily.

I have an opinion of how this was done in my mind also, but I do not have proof of it and it would be impossible to prove unless the person who did it admitted fully. I am also in a quandary as to if I feel it is wrong as it is a common practice in other hobbies and does not involve direct contact with any chemical.

[JustinD]

John,

For debate and opinion several have been defending the card in this thread as there is a great value to proof over innuendo.

I do tend to side in some ways to cleaning that does not damage or change the card structurally.

I also felt for you being saddled unknowingly with an albatross in this card as I believe you did not know the issues involved at purchase and was genuinely pleased you were able to move on. I am sorry you became the poster boy for this and I understand you are feeling personally attacked.

...but your replies are making it difficult.

[aloondilana]

Thanks Justin.
You are correct, this thread has frustrated me. I'm not attacking everyone, just about 4 people.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I don't rely on grading or buy flips over cards and I see your point in this discussion completely.

I think it only matters in this circumstance due to PWCC's return policy:
"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is NOT a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC."

it also matters because if the card shows no signs of chemical cleaning and we are only going on assumption of wrongdoing it does not meet a burden of proof in my mind to start a coup. If you have insider knowledge of what took place could you reveal without sources the method you were told cleaned this card or if you were just told it was cleaned in an untoward way?

If proof exists that is concrete and physical that other than natural items were used, than I think it would weigh my opinion heavily.

I have an opinion of how this was done in my mind also, but I do not have proof of it and it would be impossible to prove unless the person who did it admitted fully. I am also in a quandary as to if I feel it is wrong as it is a common practice in other hobbies and does not involve direct contact with any chemical.

"We at PWCC are not professional graders..." yet they have no problem lending their opinion to a card- hence their HE ( high end) designation.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

Thanks Justin.
You are correct, this thread has frustrated me. I'm not attacking everyone, just about 4 people.

Thank you for editing the previous comment.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

"We at PWCC are not professional graders..." yet they have no problem lending their opinion to a card- hence their HE ( high end) designation.

I am not defending it Dave, just quoting the language used. I agree with your statement and am not a fan of the silly HE designation.