Pujols 600 Home runs!

[clydepepper]

I sure hope that he has accomplished this 'without help'.



.

[nat]

There's no reason to think that he's had help. They've been testing for almost his entire career and he's never come back positive. He also has a very ordinary aging pattern. He was good when he was young, got better in his late 20's, and has dropped off as he's gotten older. The only thing really unusual is how good he was, but by definition great players are unusual. The really suspicious aging patterns are the "double peaks", where a player is great in his late 20's (like normal), declines, and then is great again (this is what Bonds did). That kind of aging is possible but very very unlikely to happen naturally. And Pujols hasn't been doing it, he's been getting worse (with normal ups and downs) as he's been moving through his 30s.

He's also kept the skills that you expect a player to naturally keep as he gets older, and lost the ones that you expect him to lose. He's still got his power, and power is often the last skill to go. But his batting average has cratered - as expected. Batting average is in part a product of players being able to leg out infield hits, something that older players have trouble doing. Defense is also one of the first skills to go (usually), and Pujols went from being an extraordinary defensive player to being a DH. (He was only a first baseman because he hurt his arm and couldn't play the outfield any more, and they already had Rolen - an all-time great defensive 3B - on the other side of the diamond. On any other team he'd have spent his career at third.)

So, of course anything is possible, but none of the evidence indicates that Pujols had any help. He's just a great player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nat

There's no reason to think that he's had help. They've been testing for almost his entire career and he's never come back positive. He also has a very ordinary aging pattern. He was good when he was young, got better in his late 20's, and has dropped off as he's gotten older. The only thing really unusual is how good he was, but by definition great players are unusual. The really suspicious aging patterns are the "double peaks", where a player is great in his late 20's (like normal), declines, and then is great again (this is what Bonds did). That kind of aging is possible but very very unlikely to happen naturally. And Pujols hasn't been doing it, he's been getting worse (with normal ups and downs) as he's been moving through his 30s.

He's also kept the skills that you expect a player to naturally keep as he gets older, and lost the ones that you expect him to lose. He's still got his power, and power is often the last skill to go. But his batting average has cratered - as expected. Batting average is in part a product of players being able to leg out infield hits, something that older players have trouble doing. Defense is also one of the first skills to go (usually), and Pujols went from being an extraordinary defensive player to being a DH. (He was only a first baseman because he hurt his arm and couldn't play the outfield any more, and they already had Rolen - an all-time great defensive 3B - on the other side of the diamond. On any other team he'd have spent his career at third.)

So, of course anything is possible, but none of the evidence indicates that Pujols had any help. He's just a great player.

I think the reason for doubt has as much to do with his physical appearance as anything.

[KMayUSA6060]

I'm pretty sure Pujols juiced. To what extent, who knows, but wasn't he on one of those Balco reports or whatever? It wouldn't surprise me if the MLB quietly pulled him aside, told him to knock it off, then swept it all under the rug with him being one of the more well-liked players in the game at the time and baseball needing someone like him to be the "face" of the league.

Congrats to him. I wish he wouldn't pass Thome, but that's almost inevitable.

[cardsfan73]

I have never heard any connection w/ Pujols & Balco.

The one big story I remember about Pujols & PEDS was when former major league player Jack Clark who said Pujols' ex-trainer used to "shoot him up" with performance-enhancing drugs. The trainer Chris Mihlfeld, denied the charges. Albert said he was going to take legal action.. Suddenly Jack changed his story and he and his co-host Kevin Slaten (St. Louis' wanna be sports talk shock jock) both were fired.

More on that story here: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/56426970//

The biggest questions I remember hearing about Pujols is that he was a lot older than he claimed to be. That's why he lasted until the 13th round. The age concern and the fact that he didn't have a "baseball body". Not that he was fat per say, just didnt't look like your prototypical major league prospect. Lucky for St. Louis they took a chance on a "fat kid" who could hit.

I like to think he was/is clean but to be honest nothing would shock me anymore. But until someone can show me absolute proof I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt!

[cardsfan73]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I'm pretty sure Pujols juiced. To what extent, who knows, but wasn't he on one of those Balco reports or whatever? It wouldn't surprise me if the MLB quietly pulled him aside, told him to knock it off, then swept it all under the rug with him being one of the more well-liked players in the game at the time and baseball needing someone like him to be the "face" of the league.

Congrats to him. I wish he wouldn't pass Thome, but that's almost inevitable.

What makes you pretty sure? I would love to see your sources. If he was and there was proof the press would have been all over him just like they were with Bonds & McGwire.

[cardsfan73]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the reason for doubt has as much to do with his physical appearance as anything.

What about his physical appearance? He went from being a chubby kid, to a in shape young man to getting out of shape older man. Maybe I have missed something?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cardsfan73

What about his physical appearance? He went from being a chubby kid, to a in shape young man to getting out of shape older man. Maybe I have missed something?

http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/me...s_1024x768.jpg

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834...9749eb628a4-pi

Not saying he did, just saying when you look like this it is no surprise there may be some rumors.

[cardsfan73]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/me...s_1024x768.jpg

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834...9749eb628a4-pi

Not saying he did, just saying when you look like this it is no surprise there may be some rumors.

eh, I know guys that are 100% clean that are a lot more jacked than Pujols is in either picture. Also Muscle & Fitness is know for "enhancing" their cover photos.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cardsfan73

eh, I know guys that are 100% clean that are a lot more jacked than Pujols is in either picture. Also Muscle & Fitness is know for "enhancing" their cover photos.

Yes, I am not offering it as proof, just offering it as an explanation for why some people have questions.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the reason for doubt has as much to do with his physical appearance as anything.

...just as surely as you could tell I don't miss any meals

[chaddurbin]

he's going in as a cardinal, never been more sure of anything in my life.

[Davino]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I sure hope that he has accomplished this 'without help'.



.

I'm 100% sure that he used/uses steroids.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Davino

I'm 100% sure that he used/uses steroids.

You came back from 3 years of inactivity to bump a 2 month old thread for no other reason than to make an adversarial assertion that you can't backup?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

You came back from 3 years of inactivity to bump a 2 month old thread for no other reason than to make an adversarial assertion that you can't backup?

That is the problem with PED use, there is no way of knowing for sure no matter how many signs are there. I know I am propably on a short list but to me there is no way Tony Gwynn was not a PED user. Seriously who has their best by far top 5 years in their mid 30's?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is the problem with PED use, there is no way of knowing for sure no matter how many signs are there. I know I am propably on a short list but to me there is no way Tony Gwynn was not a PED user. Seriously who has their best by far top 5 years in their mid 30's?

Roberto Clemente's best years were from 31 to 36 and probably would have continued had he not died in a plane crash.

[ALR-bishop]

Welcome back, Davino

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by rats60

Roberto Clemente's best years were from 31 to 36 and probably would have continued had he not died in a plane crash.

yeah, but that coincided with lowering the mound and everyone's offensive stats went up after that!


"That is the problem with PED use, there is no way of knowing for sure no matter how many signs are there. I know I am propably on a short list but to me there is no way Tony Gwynn was not a PED user. Seriously who has their best by far top 5 years in their mid 30's?"


well, Gwynn's best 6 year peak is between ages 23-29......

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

"


well, Gwynn's best 6 year peak is between ages 23-29......

I would say his best 6 years was between 33 and 38 with his best year at age 37. Just my opinion using old time stats as I don't know squat about the metrics stuff.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

yeah, but that coincided with lowering the mound and everyone's offensive stats went up after that!
.

Incorrect. Half those seasons were before the mound was lowered. The mound was lowered in 1969 not 1966.