1914 Colonels with George Weiss and other Pre-Rookie RPPC's

[Leon]

Recent pick up which I am told, corroborated by a foremost rookie collector, is George Weiss. He (far left in regular clothes) made the HOF as an executive in 1971. It is my understanding there are at least a few of these known. Would love to see some other pre-rookie HOF rppc's if anyone has any they would like to share. It's interesting seeing our HOF'ers in their very early days.

[triwak]

Cool Weiss card, Leon! I picked this up, this past year. c1916 RPPC of HOFer, Judy Johnson.

[h2oya311]

Leon -

Nice grab! I have the same New Haven Colonials PC as yours (one of the few known examples).

I'll try not to hijack this thread with all the pre-rookie HOF RPPC's in my collection...but here's one that I've only shown once before, so it might be new to a few folks. Also, along the same lines, it's a postcard of a baseball HOF executive really early in his career.

Warren Giles - coach of the 1918 Moline HS Basketball Team:

[jb217676]

Cool topic Leon, here are a few of my RPPC's with hall of famers:

• 1906 RPPC Washington P.O.M.L. Club (Includes Bill McKechnie)
• 1909 RPPC Superior Ball Club (Includes Dave Bancroft)
• 1912 RPPC Superior Team (Includes Dazzy Vance)

And a RPPC of a hall of "shamer":
• 1906 RPPC Des Moines Baseball Team (Includes Eddie Cicotte)

[Brian Van Horn]

.

[h2oya311]

Brian -

And the star/HOFer is...?

Jeff - I recognize a few of those👍

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Brian -

And the star/HOFer is...?

Jeff - I recognize a few of those��

Derek,

I would direct you to the second player from the right in the front row. Hint: he is the older brother of two Hall of Famers that played primarily for the Pirates.

[h2oya311]

Brian -

If it's him, that's awesome! If not, he's a pretty good look-alike! Any facial recognition guys take a look at it yet?

[Brian Van Horn]

Derek,

Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, but I don't need a facial recognition guy. I've seen enough pictures of Paul Waner to know it's him.

[Brian Van Horn]

OT and not a postcard:

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Derek,

Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, but I don't need a facial recognition guy. I've seen enough pictures of Paul Waner to know it's him.

What team is this?

[slidekellyslide]

Love that Des Moines with Cicotte RPPC. Wish I could find a postcard with him in Lincoln. I do have a 1907 cabinet photo of the Lincoln team with Cicotte though.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

What team is this?

Dan,

Most likely a team in Oklahoma which is where the Waners were from.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Dan,

Most likely a team in Oklahoma which is where the Waners were from.

Is there any info on the back? Postmarked? AZO Stamp box?

[rickalaska]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

.

Brian,

Regarding your RPPC with Paul Waner as a minor league All Star - do you think that is brother Lloyd to the far right of the photo?

I have attached another RPPC from about 3 years earlier then your card, that has almost all of these same guys. What do you think?

Rick

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Derek,

Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, but I don't need a facial recognition guy. I've seen enough pictures of Paul Waner to know it's him.

I'm not trying to be cocky or arrogant either, but could could post that face in higher res? I don't know whether it's him or not.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by rickalaska

Brian,

My first time inputting a response on this site, so hope I am doing it right... Regarding your RPPC with Paul Waner as a minor league All Star - do you think that is brother Lloyd to the far right of the photo?

I have attached another RPPC from about 3 years earlier then your card, that has almost all of these guys. What do you think?

Rick

Rick,

I do not think Lloyd is in the photo.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I'm not trying to be cocky or arrogant either, but could could post that face in higher res? I don't know whether it's him or not.

Mark,

This is about a hi res as I can get:

[rickalaska]

Originally Posted by Leon

Recent pick up which I am told, corroborated by a foremost rookie collector, is George Weiss. He (far left in regular clothes) made the HOF as an executive in 1971. It is my understanding there are at least a few of these known. Would love to see some other pre-rookie HOF rppc's if anyone has any they would like to share. It's interesting seeing our HOF'ers in their very early days.

Leon,

Here is an earlier George Weiss (holding bat at left) that I found recently - I would guess High School age around 1910.

Rick

[Kawika]

The 1908 Reading Pretzels featuring Home Run Baker. He debuted with the Athletics in September of that year. Not an RPPC but meets the other criteria.


This is the circa 1915 Portland, Maine Duffs coached by HOFer Hugh Duffy whom I believe is in the front row at right. Not a pre-rookie image but what the heck.


1926 Toronto Maple Leafs with 23 year old Carl Hubbell in the front row, still a couple of years away from the Bigs. Another HOFer in the guise of Lionel Conacher is seen in the back row at left. He is in Halls of Fame for hockey, lacrosse and Canadian Football.


Not an RPPC and no HOFers but I'm just itching to post it anyway. 1908 Richmond Colts featuring an essload of T210ers.



Don't have this postcard in hand yet. Won it at auction the other night. The AH claimed matter of fact that the gent at the very left is Casey Stengel with the 1910 Western Dental School ball club (? !). I don't think there's any way that it's Stengel but I liked the card all the same. If I'm wrong then I'll be stoked. Probably what we have is an RPPC of a pre-rookie dentist.

[rhettyeakley]

David, Duffy is the 3rd guy in from left middle row in that Portland postcard... Awesome image!

[kdixon]

Here are a few of Zach Wheat. Not sure of the years. One has him driving the wagon. I picked them all up together.

[h2oya311]

David - that Toronto Team PC is insane! I have yet to see another, but that postcard is still very high on my want list.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

David, Duffy is the 3rd guy in from left middle row in that Portland postcard... Awesome image!

Thank you, Rhett. I used the postage stamp image from BBRef.com to try to make a match so my ID effort was kinda flimsy.

Originally Posted by h2oya311

David - that Toronto Team PC is insane! I have yet to see another, but that postcard is still very high on my want list.

Derek: Conacher wasn't mentioned in the description when I bought it but he popped out at me right away. People thought I was nuts when I paid big bucks but this post card is a winner in so many ways. You and a couple of other guys have expressed particular interest in it so there's a bit of a quandary down the line when the time comes to part ways with Mssrs. Hubbell and Conacher. I wish I could oblige all you guys that want my stuff.

[h2oya311]

Kenny - what's that bottom one? Is Wheat in there with his sandlot crew (and a dog mascot)?

Here's a pre-rookie of Stan Covaleski with the 1909 Lancaster Red Roses Team:

[kdixon]

Got all 4 from his family. They thought he was in the picture but I have no idea which one could be him. I've got other pictures of his youth but they aren't postcards. Have his 3 month old baby pic and one yr old pic plus couple cabinet cards before he was in majors.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by kdixon

Got all 4 from his family. They thought he was in the picture but I have no idea which one could be him. I've got other pictures of his youth but they aren't postcards. Have his 3 month old baby pic and one yr old pic plus couple cabinet cards before he was in majors.

oh trust me, I know! I love your 1906 Prairie Roses Team Cabinet and the Cabinet of Wheat in a Union City uniform. I believe my early Wheat card came from the same collection (it's a 1900s cabinet w/ Zach and Mack Wheat and another brother). I believe you owned it at one time.

[kdixon]

Yes it did

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Derek,

Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, but I don't need a facial recognition guy. I've seen enough pictures of Paul Waner to know it's him.

Brian - I think you do. Before we get to that, the uniform/cap styles of the guys on your image are basically pre-1910 (note especially the collars). Two of the guys have lace up jerseys - so it can even be late 1890s-early 1900s. Paul Waner was born in 1903, so that's a problem and makes the Waner ID unlikely.

What is conclusive are the substantial facial feature differences. I know the scan you posted (below center) is not good, but it's good enough to see that your guy has a nice turned-up nose, while P. Waner had a big hook nose. And yes, the ear is way different. Your guy isn't him.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Brain - I think you do. Before we get to that, the uniform/cap styles of the guys on your image are basically pre-1910 (note especially the collars). Two of the guys have lace up jerseys - so it can even be late 1890s-early 1900s. Paul Waner was born in 1903, so that's a problem.

But the real problem is substantial facial feature differences. I know the scan you posted (below center) is not good, but it's good enough to see that your guy has a nice turned-up nose, while P. Waner had a big hook nose. And yes, the ear is way different. Your guy isn't him.

It is Paul Waner. Here is his 1923 Zee Nut rookie card. For me the facial features are consistent which is good enough for me.

[bmarlowe1]

You can't even see facial features in what you just posted. How do you explain the differences shown in my post?

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

You can't even see facial features in what you just posted. How do you explain the differences shown in my post?

Mark,

I look at the cheekbones and I have looked at hundreds of Paul Waner photos over the years. The young man in the photo is Paul Waner. I am sorry you disagree, but it is Paul Waner.

[bmarlowe1]

Relative cheekbone location can be used in a forensic facial comparison, but in none of the images under discussion can the cheekbone location be discerned. There is actually something in particular to look for and you surely don't know what it is.

Even if the cheekbones could be seen and seemed to match (which would not be uncommon even for different people), a gross mismatch in any other facial feature virtually disqualifies two images from depicting the same person. Assuming the bad scan as posted is true to the image as seen in hand, the ear mismatch alone immediately tells us this is not P. Waner. Same for the nose.

You are just using your subjective (and very fallible for most people) facial recognition response plus a lot of wishful thinking.

[Brian Van Horn]

Mark,

The nose is not upturned in the image of the young Paul Waner and the cheekbone structure matches between the picture and the Zee Nut rookie card. I am sorry, but it is Paul Waner.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Mark,

The nose is not upturned in the image of the young Paul Waner and the cheekbone structure matches between the picture and the Zee Nut rookie card. I am sorry, but it is Paul Waner.

We can easily see your guy's nostril because his nose is upturned. Compare that to the two Waner exemplars I posted. You still haven't explained the ear.

What is cheekbone structure?

[Brian Van Horn]

Mark,

Just please look at the cheekbones and how pronounced they are. They match. As for ears, believe it or not, but ears and nose continue to grow ever so slightly as we age. Of course , I have found for some reason in my case, my feet have grown a bit with age (again ). I graduated college with size nine shoes. I now have size eleven shoes.

[RedsFan1941]

i know from experience that it's disappointing to find out a card you own isn't what you thought it was. bummer.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Mark,

Just please look at the cheekbones and how pronounced they are. They match. As for ears, believe it or not, but ears and nose continue to grow ever so slightly as we age. Of course , I have found for some reason in my case, my feet have grown a bit with age (again ). I graduated college with size nine shoes. I now have size eleven shoes.

The ear growth of which you speak is so small that it would not be noticeable even when comparing a photograph of a teenager to that of a man in his 40's. It rarely becomes apparent until much later, and even then it is usually just some ear lobe droop - not a gross change in shape. Old man and teenager ears can almost always be compared. If you are interested I can send you literature on the use of ear comparison in forensic photo identification.

Nose tip also can droop when we get old - but nowhere near enough to account for the gross difference seen here, and anyway and in the exemplar photos of Waner he is not that old.

Cheekbones are not visible in any of the images under discussion.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

i know from experience that it's disappointing to find out a card you own isn't what you thought it was. bummer.

Agreed, but that is not the case here and I am not in denial. Amusement, but not denial.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The ear growth of which you speak is so small that it would not be noticeable even when comparing a photograph of a teenager to that a man of later all playing age (40's). It rarely becomes apparent until much later, and even then it is usually just some ear lobe droop - not a gross change in shape. Old man and teenager ears can almost always be compared. If you are interested I can send you literature on the use of ear comparison in forensic photo identification.

Cheekbones are not visible in any of the images under discussion.

Mark,

I am not looking at the pictures off the site from where I sit, but the images that have been posted. The cheekbones are visible. Also, please feel free to compare the chin in the side by side photos of Paul Waner you provided and the picture of the young Paul Waner from my picture which you posted next to Waner in a Pirates uniform. I'm sorry, but it is Paul Waner.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Mark,

I am not looking at the pictures off the site from where I sit, but the images that have been posted. The cheekbones are visible. Also, please feel free to compare the chin in the side by side photos of Paul Waner you provided and the picture of the young Paul Waner from my picture which you posted next to Waner in a Pirates uniform. I'm sorry, but it is Paul Waner.

You don't know what cheekbones are - you have not studied this subject.

Assuming the chins matched perfectly (they don't) - it still can't possibly be Waner if the ears and nose don't match. Sorry for being logical.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

You don't know what cheekbones are - you have not studied this subject.

Assuming the chins matched perfectly (they don't) - it still can't possibly be Waner if the ears and nose don't match. Sorry for being logical.

I may not study the subject, but the cheekbones and the chin match. These are points of identification. This is Paul Waner.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I may not study the subject, but the cheekbones and the chin match. These are points of identification. This is Paul Waner.

LOL - so everyone with matching chins and cheekbones is the same person. Hard to to debate such powerful logic.

BTW, cheekbones are easiest to see in photos of very thin people (like female models). In people of normal weight, it can be very difficult to pinpoint the location. Anyone interested can google for a human skull and look for the bone usually labeled "zygomatic". Then see if you can find Waner's zygomatic bone.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

LOL - so everyone with matching chins and cheekbones is the same person. Hard to to debate such powerful logic.

BTW, cheekbones are easiest to see in photos of very thin people (like female models). In people of normal weight, it can be very difficult to pinpoint the location. Anyone interested can google for a human skull and look for the bone usually labeled "zygomatic". Then see if you can find Waner's zygomatic bone.

So you are telling me to get "zyggy" with it?

It's Paul Waner. Sorry, but the points match and that, along with the other pictures I have seen of Paul Waner over the last 30+ years is good for me.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

So you are telling me to get "zyggy" with it?

It's Paul Waner. Sorry, but the points match and that, along with the other pictures I have seen of Paul Waner over the last 30+ years is good for me.

I can't think of a better example of how collectors can come to believe the unbelievable. I am sure Brian actually thinks this guy is Waner and that there is no ill-intent at all on his part. Just be careful when you think you have found a previously unknown photo of a Hall-of-Famer (and don't forget to be sure that the uniform style dating doesn't correspond to the player being 2 years old).

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I can't think of a better example of how collectors can come to believe the unbelievable. I am sure Brian actually thinks this guy is Waner and that there is no ill-intent at all on his part. Just be careful when you think you have found a previously unknown photo of a Hall-of-Famer (and don't forget to be sure that the uniform style dating doesn't correspond to the player being 2 years old).

LOL. I will amusingly disagree.

No hard feelings.

[BeanTown]

Let's argue about this! Is this Ty Cobb or what on this tin type? Yes I know tin types are from 1860-70 so I imagine this could be his Dad. Tin type is top left and the other two are early 1905/06 pictures of Ty.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Let's argue about this! Is this Ty Cobb or what on this tin type? Yes I know tin types are from 1860-70 so I imagine this could be his Dad. Tin type is top left and the other two are early 1905/06 pictures of Ty.

Thank you, Jay!

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Let's argue about this! Is this Ty Cobb or what on this tin type? Yes I know tin types are from 1860-70 so I imagine this could be his Dad. Tin type is top left and the other two are early 1905/06 pictures of Ty.

Nothing to argue about - ears don't match, not Ty Cobb. Also the tiptype guy has a chin cleft which I haven't seen apparent in any Cobb photo. And of course it's a tintype, which makes as much sense for a Cobb image as Paul Waner wearing a 1900s collared uniform.

[slidekellyslide]

Clearly it's not Cobb, but tintype photos were still being made into the 1900s.