POLL: IN or OUT: YES or NO

[clydepepper]

Just a simple YES or NO answer, please. Try not to expand on you answer. I'm just trying to gauge exactly how 'we' stand on this.

Q: Should Barry Bonds and/or Roger Clemens be Inducted into the HOF?

[Big Six]

No and no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frankbmd]

Who is this Cemens of whom you speak?

[packs]

Cemens in, Clemens out.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Clemens - YES
Bonds - YES

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Clemens - YES
Bonds - YES

Ditto. Yes on both counts!

[Michael B]

Both NO (Out).

[barrysloate]

I said yes and yes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.

+1

Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Who is this Cemens of whom you speak?

Sarie - my tipeng has nevurr bin the besst

[rats60]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

+1

Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh.

Joe Jackson has been waiting 82 years. They haven't waited long enough in my opinion.

[HRBAKER]

2 No's for me

They chose their fate

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe Jackson has been waiting 82 years. They haven't waited long enough in my opinion.

Joe Jackson's transgression was much worse. He participated in a plot to throw the World Series to gamblers. No comparison...although I would probably vote for Joe to get in.

[bnorth]

Bonds-yes
Clemens-YES

Neither cheater more than whoever your favorite player is.

[HRBAKER]

That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.

[Leon]

no

no

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.

Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.

Neither did Lance Armstrong.....Or at least he never failed any after the Nike people talked to the UCI people.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Neither did Lance Armstrong.....Or at least he never failed any after the Nike people talked to the UCI people.

Armstrong admits it, Clemens denies it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.

Ruth ate hot dogs. That's my kind of guy.

[conor912]

I think it's interesting that the "yes" votes are tracking in tandem with the BBWAA.

[TUM301]

Clemens-NO, Bonds-NO

[rats60]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Joe Jackson's transgression was much worse. He participated in a plot to throw the World Series to gamblers. No comparison...although I would probably vote for Joe to get in.

Strongly disagree. .375/.394/.563/.956 5 runs 1 HR 6 RBIs 0 errors in 8 games. If that is "throwing" the World Series, then Bonds "threw" 3 NLCS with his .191 BA and 3 RBIs in 20 games.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by rats60

Strongly disagree. .375/.394/.563/.956 5 runs 1 HR 6 RBIs 0 errors in 8 games. If that is "throwing" the World Series, then Bonds "threw" 3 NLCS with his .191 BA and 3 RBIs in 20 games.

I know Jackson had the great stats which leads one to believe he changed his mind along the way. But he did take money from the gamblers, didn't he? The first installment was split among the eight players.

Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF.

[botn]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I know Jackson had the great stats which leads one to believe he changed his mind along the way. But he did take money from the gamblers, didn't he? The first installment was split among the eight players.

Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF.

Hi Barry,

Then Jackson should be punished for stealing money but let's assume he did participate in throwing the series, despite his stats saying otherwise, we are comparing a player's indiscretion over 8 games compared to those who cheated over several hundred games.

Maybe it is time for us to accept that there are really very few superstars in the game who are not cheating but that should not mean we look the other way for the guys who did cheat to become superstars. Bonds was HOF material before he used. I don't think we should be acknowledging his (or anyone else's) accomplishments knowing he broke the rules to achieve them.

Greg

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.

I'm not understanding the greenies argument at all. You can still take the modern equivalent of greenies and play right now so long as you have a prescription. You can't take HGH or anabolic steroids at all, prescription or not. It's not an apt comparison.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.

Maybe after a four year stretch in Boston where he was 40-39 with an ERA around 4 he discovered the Canadian Fountain of Youth. Just as plausible I guess.

At the end of the day these guys decided to do what they did, they were already greats. Those of us who think no didn't make them do it. They have already enjoyed all of the good things that flowed from it, the adulation, the fame, the contracts and the mockery of the record books. Now they are left to deal with the baggage.

I am certain they will get in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not understanding the greenies argument at all. You can still take the modern equivalent of greenies and play right now so long as you have a prescription. You can't take HGH or anabolic steroids at all, prescription or not. It's not an apt comparison.

Using amphetamines without a prescription became a federal crime in about 1970. Do you think the pile of greenies in the clubhouse until baseball banned them in 2006 (I think that's the right date) was all by prescription? So we're cool with players who committed a federal crime repeatedly, but not with players who used HGH?

[clydepepper]

Here are two weird ideas:

1.)The ONLY voting will be done by current Hall-of-Famers.


and / or


2.) Elect Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc.,

but only INDUCT Them POSTHUMOUSLY!

[Jim65]

No on both.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Using amphetamines without a prescription became a federal crime in about 1970. Do you think the pile of greenies in the clubhouse until baseball banned them in 2006 (I think that's the right date) was all by prescription? So we're cool with players who committed a federal crime repeatedly, but not with players who used HGH?

Are you saying Mantle, Mays and Aaron were using greenies in the twilight of their careers post-1970? Mantle had already retired. Mays and Aaron were on their last legs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you saying Mantle, Mays and Aaron were using greenies in the twilight of their careers post-1970? Mantle had already retired. Mays and Aaron were on their last legs.

You're missing the point, but in any case Aaron was very productive in the early 70s, unless you want to sneer at seasons of 47 and 40 HR and two others in the 30s. The larger point is that according to many sources, greenie use in baseball was rampant, and it's a very safe assumption that many of our heroes used them, even after they became illegal from a federal law perspective.

[packs]

Why is it safe to assume that? If Mantle used them, he used them before he wasn't allowed to. If Aaron and Mays used them, what do you point to in support of them using greenies at the end of their careers?

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing the point, but in any case Aaron was very productive in the early 70s, unless you want to sneer at seasons of 47 and 40 HR and two others in the 30s. The larger point is that according to many sources, greenie use in baseball was rampant, and it's a very safe assumption that many of our heroes used them, even after they became illegal from a federal law perspective.

no evidence that greenies improved statistics. But there is a ton of evidence that roids and HGH improved stats. No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era ad then suddenly 30 players did.

[buymycards]

It isn't so much the fact that they were using steroids, but what bothers me more is that they continued to lie about it and never admitted to what they were doing. If they had just told the truth I would be more inclined to give them a yes vote.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by buymycards

It isn't so much the fact that they were using steroids, but what bothers me more is that they continued to lie about it and never admitted to what they were doing. If they had just told the truth I would be more inclined to give them a yes vote.

That's their way of telling you the rules don't apply to them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

no evidence that greenies improved statistics. But there is a ton of evidence that roids and HGH improved stats. No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era ad then suddenly 30 players did.

Aaron 1971 at age 37 had his highest marks for HR, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Aaron 1971 at age 37 had his highest marks for HR, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+.

For this particular instance, I really believe you can believe in the MAN more than the STATS.

Isn't that refreshing?


.

[bbcard1]

Holding nose, yes.

Their stats are beyond question and they represented an era of baseball that was a part of the story.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Aaron 1971 at age 37 had his highest marks for HR, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+.

one year is not an argument.

Lots of players have an outlying big year later in their careers and Hank had a pair of flukey high ISO years, (surrounded by years that were normal, so that seems unlikely that he only did greenies every other year?)

Plus using only one player is also fallacious. Bonds, Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro ...etc all posted long runs of their best numbers wayy late, they had double peaks.

Since baseball mandated testing did you know thee is no longer a peak at 28 like before? Now , on average so of course individuals may differ, players are peaking right away and declining by 28.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was only responding to this:

No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era

I wasn't making a point about the effect of greenies.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Ditto. Yes on both counts!

nice card, glws..

[RichardSimon]

No and No.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.

The problem is how much of their light stems from the juiced bodies they gave themselves. Everyone looks to try to gain an edge; that's human nature and natural competitiveness. These two, and several other late bloomer boomers did so by illegal performance-enhancing drugs. They cheated. They cheated the integrity of the game. They do not belong in the BBHOF---ever.

Sure, there are lesser lights in the BBHOF. That fact has nothing to do with Barry Bonds or Roger Clemons. Pete Rose outshines all those lesser lights. For how little of Pete's HOF career did he actually bet on MLB? Whatever little space of time it was, it was enough for the powers that be to throw him out of the game forever. The Black Sox were involved in throwing a best of nine World Series. Just one lousy World Series.

Just---and it cost them their careers---the rest of their lives. I think that was much, much, much harsher. Barry and Roger made among the biggest boo coo during their careers. They got to keep all that. They got to play MLB as long as they wanted, pretty much.

And you've got the nerve to cry the blues, and carry their torch, and demand their enshrinement. A final thought. Not often mentioned about Barry and Roger, and all "the others", were the many, many, many young guys who thought long and hard about whether they should start taking performance-enhancing drugs to increase their own power, and increase their own chances of making it into the major leagues. For a few of those wannabes, the drugs did more for them than they'd bargained for, and they died young.

'Nuf said. ----Brian Powell

[Peter_Spaeth]

Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.

The highest paid players, or rather the players who are willing to spend the most on them, have the best masking agents.

Even then, 16.5 inch forearms or a size 9 head are blatantly obvious.

[quinnsryche]

Hell no on both. And never ever too.

[Jacklitsch]

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