NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

View Poll Results: Shound Barry Bonds and/or Roger Clemens be inducted into the HOF?
Bonds - in 78 50.00%
Bonds - OUT 78 50.00%
Cemens - in 76 48.72%
Clemens - OUT 77 49.36%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:53 AM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default POLL: IN or OUT: YES or NO

Just a simple YES or NO answer, please. Try not to expand on you answer. I'm just trying to gauge exactly how 'we' stand on this.

Q: Should Barry Bonds and/or Roger Clemens be Inducted into the HOF?
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente

Last edited by clydepepper; 12-20-2017 at 06:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-18-2017, 11:56 AM
Big Six's Avatar
Big Six Big Six is offline
M@tt McC@rthy
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,485
Default

No and no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
M@tt McC@arthy
I collect Hal Chase, Diamond Stars (PSA 5 or better), 1951 Bowman (Raw Ex or better), 1954 Topps (PSA 7 or better), 1956 Topps (Raw Ex or better), 3x5 Hall of Fame Autographs and autographed Perez Steele Postcards. You can see my collection by going to http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/BigSix.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:17 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 7,391
Default

Who is this Cemens of whom you speak?
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES


274/1000 Monster Number


Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024.
Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served.
If you want fries with your order, just speak up.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-18-2017, 12:46 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,831
Default

Cemens in, Clemens out.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:29 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Clemens - YES
Bonds - YES
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:31 PM
3-2-count's Avatar
3-2-count 3-2-count is offline
T0NY @
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,920
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Clemens - YES
Bonds - YES
Ditto. Yes on both counts!
__________________
Tony A.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:42 PM
Michael B Michael B is offline
Mîçhæ£ ßöw£ß¥
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,880
Default

Both NO (Out).
__________________
'Integrity is what you do when no one is looking'

"The man who can keep a secret may be wise, but he is not half as wise as the man with no secrets to keep”
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-18-2017, 05:37 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

I said yes and yes.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-18-2017, 05:57 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-18-2017, 06:26 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.
+1

Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-19-2017, 05:13 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
Who is this Cemens of whom you speak?


Sarie - my tipeng has nevurr bin the besst
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-19-2017, 05:43 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
+1

Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh.
Joe Jackson has been waiting 82 years. They haven't waited long enough in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-19-2017, 06:17 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

2 No's for me

They chose their fate
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-20-2017, 03:54 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Joe Jackson has been waiting 82 years. They haven't waited long enough in my opinion.
Joe Jackson's transgression was much worse. He participated in a plot to throw the World Series to gamblers. No comparison...although I would probably vote for Joe to get in.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-20-2017, 06:02 AM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is offline
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 10,226
Default

Bonds-yes
Clemens-YES

Neither cheater more than whoever your favorite player is.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-20-2017, 06:44 AM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:05 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is online now
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 35,034
Default

no

no
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:29 AM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.
Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:34 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,229
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.
Neither did Lance Armstrong.....Or at least he never failed any after the Nike people talked to the UCI people.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:44 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:45 AM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Neither did Lance Armstrong.....Or at least he never failed any after the Nike people talked to the UCI people.
Armstrong admits it, Clemens denies it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:51 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is online now
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 35,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.
Ruth ate hot dogs. That's my kind of guy.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:36 AM
conor912's Avatar
conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,188
Default

I think it's interesting that the "yes" votes are tracking in tandem with the BBWAA.
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:49 AM
TUM301 TUM301 is offline
H Murphy
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 1,213
Default

Clemens-NO, Bonds-NO
__________________
H Murphy Collection https://www.flickr.com/photos/154296763@N05/
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:44 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Joe Jackson's transgression was much worse. He participated in a plot to throw the World Series to gamblers. No comparison...although I would probably vote for Joe to get in.
Strongly disagree. .375/.394/.563/.956 5 runs 1 HR 6 RBIs 0 errors in 8 games. If that is "throwing" the World Series, then Bonds "threw" 3 NLCS with his .191 BA and 3 RBIs in 20 games.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:51 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Strongly disagree. .375/.394/.563/.956 5 runs 1 HR 6 RBIs 0 errors in 8 games. If that is "throwing" the World Series, then Bonds "threw" 3 NLCS with his .191 BA and 3 RBIs in 20 games.
I know Jackson had the great stats which leads one to believe he changed his mind along the way. But he did take money from the gamblers, didn't he? The first installment was split among the eight players.

Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:31 PM
botn botn is offline
Greg Schwartz
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
I know Jackson had the great stats which leads one to believe he changed his mind along the way. But he did take money from the gamblers, didn't he? The first installment was split among the eight players.

Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF.
Hi Barry,

Then Jackson should be punished for stealing money but let's assume he did participate in throwing the series, despite his stats saying otherwise, we are comparing a player's indiscretion over 8 games compared to those who cheated over several hundred games.

Maybe it is time for us to accept that there are really very few superstars in the game who are not cheating but that should not mean we look the other way for the guys who did cheat to become superstars. Bonds was HOF material before he used. I don't think we should be acknowledging his (or anyone else's) accomplishments knowing he broke the rules to achieve them.

Greg
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-20-2017, 02:00 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,831
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.

I'm not understanding the greenies argument at all. You can still take the modern equivalent of greenies and play right now so long as you have a prescription. You can't take HGH or anabolic steroids at all, prescription or not. It's not an apt comparison.

Last edited by packs; 12-20-2017 at 02:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-20-2017, 03:47 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Well, aren't you assuming that Clemens did it? As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong), he never failed a test.
Maybe after a four year stretch in Boston where he was 40-39 with an ERA around 4 he discovered the Canadian Fountain of Youth. Just as plausible I guess.

At the end of the day these guys decided to do what they did, they were already greats. Those of us who think no didn't make them do it. They have already enjoyed all of the good things that flowed from it, the adulation, the fame, the contracts and the mockery of the record books. Now they are left to deal with the baggage.

I am certain they will get in.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:31 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
I'm not understanding the greenies argument at all. You can still take the modern equivalent of greenies and play right now so long as you have a prescription. You can't take HGH or anabolic steroids at all, prescription or not. It's not an apt comparison.
Using amphetamines without a prescription became a federal crime in about 1970. Do you think the pile of greenies in the clubhouse until baseball banned them in 2006 (I think that's the right date) was all by prescription? So we're cool with players who committed a federal crime repeatedly, but not with players who used HGH?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-20-2017 at 07:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-20-2017, 08:02 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Here are two weird ideas:

1.)The ONLY voting will be done by current Hall-of-Famers.


and / or


2.) Elect Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc.,

but only INDUCT Them POSTHUMOUSLY!
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:08 AM
Jim65's Avatar
Jim65 Jim65 is offline
Jam.es Braci.liano
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,277
Default

No on both.

Last edited by Jim65; 12-21-2017 at 06:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:20 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,831
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Using amphetamines without a prescription became a federal crime in about 1970. Do you think the pile of greenies in the clubhouse until baseball banned them in 2006 (I think that's the right date) was all by prescription? So we're cool with players who committed a federal crime repeatedly, but not with players who used HGH?
Are you saying Mantle, Mays and Aaron were using greenies in the twilight of their careers post-1970? Mantle had already retired. Mays and Aaron were on their last legs.

Last edited by packs; 12-21-2017 at 08:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:25 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Are you saying Mantle, Mays and Aaron were using greenies in the twilight of their careers post-1970? Mantle had already retired. Mays and Aaron were on their last legs.
You're missing the point, but in any case Aaron was very productive in the early 70s, unless you want to sneer at seasons of 47 and 40 HR and two others in the 30s. The larger point is that according to many sources, greenie use in baseball was rampant, and it's a very safe assumption that many of our heroes used them, even after they became illegal from a federal law perspective.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:27 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,831
Default

Why is it safe to assume that? If Mantle used them, he used them before he wasn't allowed to. If Aaron and Mays used them, what do you point to in support of them using greenies at the end of their careers?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-22-2017, 12:09 PM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
You're missing the point, but in any case Aaron was very productive in the early 70s, unless you want to sneer at seasons of 47 and 40 HR and two others in the 30s. The larger point is that according to many sources, greenie use in baseball was rampant, and it's a very safe assumption that many of our heroes used them, even after they became illegal from a federal law perspective.
no evidence that greenies improved statistics. But there is a ton of evidence that roids and HGH improved stats. No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era ad then suddenly 30 players did.
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-22-2017, 01:02 PM
buymycards's Avatar
buymycards buymycards is offline
Rick McQuillan
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,178
Default both out

It isn't so much the fact that they were using steroids, but what bothers me more is that they continued to lie about it and never admitted to what they were doing. If they had just told the truth I would be more inclined to give them a yes vote.
__________________
Rick McQuillan


T213-2 139 down 46 to go.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-22-2017, 01:55 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buymycards View Post
It isn't so much the fact that they were using steroids, but what bothers me more is that they continued to lie about it and never admitted to what they were doing. If they had just told the truth I would be more inclined to give them a yes vote.
That's their way of telling you the rules don't apply to them.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-22-2017, 05:16 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos4evr View Post
no evidence that greenies improved statistics. But there is a ton of evidence that roids and HGH improved stats. No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era ad then suddenly 30 players did.
Aaron 1971 at age 37 had his highest marks for HR, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-22-2017, 09:22 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Aaron 1971 at age 37 had his highest marks for HR, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+.


For this particular instance, I really believe you can believe in the MAN more than the STATS.

Isn't that refreshing?


.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-23-2017, 07:16 AM
bbcard1 bbcard1 is offline
T0dd M@rcum
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 3,375
Default

Holding nose, yes.

Their stats are beyond question and they represented an era of baseball that was a part of the story.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-23-2017, 11:04 AM
bravos4evr's Avatar
bravos4evr bravos4evr is offline
Nick Barnes
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Aaron 1971 at age 37 had his highest marks for HR, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+.
one year is not an argument.

Lots of players have an outlying big year later in their careers and Hank had a pair of flukey high ISO years, (surrounded by years that were normal, so that seems unlikely that he only did greenies every other year?)

Plus using only one player is also fallacious. Bonds, Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro ...etc all posted long runs of their best numbers wayy late, they had double peaks.

Since baseball mandated testing did you know thee is no longer a peak at 28 like before? Now , on average so of course individuals may differ, players are peaking right away and declining by 28.
__________________
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."- Tom Waits
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-23-2017, 11:14 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

I was only responding to this:

No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era

I wasn't making a point about the effect of greenies.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-23-2017 at 11:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-24-2017, 12:25 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/mysetregistry/set/348387
Posts: 5,767
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-2-count View Post
Ditto. Yes on both counts!
nice card, glws..
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-24-2017, 03:57 PM
RichardSimon's Avatar
RichardSimon RichardSimon is offline
Richard Simon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York City
Posts: 5,425
Default

No and No.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history.
-
Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first.
www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports
--
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-24-2017, 06:03 PM
brian1961 brian1961 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.
The problem is how much of their light stems from the juiced bodies they gave themselves. Everyone looks to try to gain an edge; that's human nature and natural competitiveness. These two, and several other late bloomer boomers did so by illegal performance-enhancing drugs. They cheated. They cheated the integrity of the game. They do not belong in the BBHOF---ever.

Sure, there are lesser lights in the BBHOF. That fact has nothing to do with Barry Bonds or Roger Clemons. Pete Rose outshines all those lesser lights. For how little of Pete's HOF career did he actually bet on MLB? Whatever little space of time it was, it was enough for the powers that be to throw him out of the game forever. The Black Sox were involved in throwing a best of nine World Series. Just one lousy World Series.

Just---and it cost them their careers---the rest of their lives. I think that was much, much, much harsher. Barry and Roger made among the biggest boo coo during their careers. They got to keep all that. They got to play MLB as long as they wanted, pretty much.

And you've got the nerve to cry the blues, and carry their torch, and demand their enshrinement. A final thought. Not often mentioned about Barry and Roger, and all "the others", were the many, many, many young guys who thought long and hard about whether they should start taking performance-enhancing drugs to increase their own power, and increase their own chances of making it into the major leagues. For a few of those wannabes, the drugs did more for them than they'd bargained for, and they died young.

'Nuf said. ----Brian Powell
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-24-2017, 06:17 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-24-2017 at 06:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-27-2017, 06:37 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?

Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs?

Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that?

Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more.


The highest paid players, or rather the players who are willing to spend the most on them, have the best masking agents.

Even then, 16.5 inch forearms or a size 9 head are blatantly obvious.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente

Last edited by clydepepper; 12-27-2017 at 06:37 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-27-2017, 08:21 PM
quinnsryche's Avatar
quinnsryche quinnsryche is offline
Tony Quinn
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Punta Gorda. FL
Posts: 7,568
Default

Hell no on both. And never ever too.
__________________
I Remember Now.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-27-2017, 08:56 PM
Jacklitsch's Avatar
Jacklitsch Jacklitsch is offline
Steve Murray
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,739
Default

In

In
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PSA vs SGC Poll Buythatcard Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 16 05-19-2010 11:39 AM
What would you do? - poll Leon Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 33 05-06-2010 06:30 PM
NEW POLL! Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 6 07-10-2008 03:02 PM
New Poll Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 54 12-21-2006 07:03 PM
New Poll Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 23 10-09-2005 07:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:49 PM.


ebay GSB