Discussion re E Cards -- Opinions Needed

[Rhotchkiss]

I love T206s. I love the "monstrosity" of the set, I love the players and the poses, and most of all, I love the various back advertisements. But, as much as I love T206s, and can include by extension T213, T214, and T215s, I collect other prewar cards; actually, I collect certain prewar players, and thus, collect other, non-T206 prewar cards. Lately, I have jumped headfirst into Mr. Honus Wagner Cards, which has me buying things like post cards, confectionary cards and E cards (because obviously there are few T cards of Wags). Which brings me to the point of this thread.

Below I list a number of questions. While I would appreciate feedback on each, please feel free to respond to one or two inquiries only.

1. How desirable are E cards today compared to (a) T206, (b) other T cards, and (c) compared to their desirability a decade ago?

2. It appears that the value of E cards are down substantially since 2006-2008. Is this accurate, and if so (a) why?, and (b) do you feel they have bottomed out (and will rise) or is their fall in value to continue?

3. Do you care about the various back variations on the cards, or is it all about the front pose; take for example E90, E92, E101, E102, E105 (maybe E106), etc., which all have the same fronts but many different backs, and would you pay up for a scarce front/back combo (like a Wagner blue crofts candy or a crofts cocoa)?

4. Would you agree that the E92/E101 (those listed above) front poses are more desirable than other candy/caramel issues, like E91 E93, E94, E95, E98, etc?

5. Related to question 4 -- what is the "T206" of E cards?

Thanks and cant wait to read the responses

[ullmandds]

e90-1 is the obvious E counterpart to T206...the monster of caramel sets!

Personally...I've been off T206 for a long time now...too pedestrian for my taste. I love caramels...they are much tougher than most t206, they are much harder to find in high grade than t206...and YES YES Yes I will pay up for rare front/back combos. Esp if the front is a dots miller I need for my run.

As far as values go...I believe the best investments in vintage to be the top tier HOF'ers...like your honus wagner. Additionally, we have discussed this numerous times...the fact that most honus wagner cards are more scarce than the t206 counterpart.

[T206Collector]

I am by no means an expert in E cards, but I am a serious T206 card collector who sometimes gets distracted by certain E issues. What I mean by that is I sometimes spend months or even a year or two collecting an E issue. I went through an E95 phase, a Dockman phase, and an E90-1 phase. To me the biggest difference in collectability is that the caramels are just not as liquid as the T206s. They just sit there and don't get offers very often. And if you do sell at auction, the prices realized seem to me to be much more inconsistent than T206s, which are liquid and consistent in pricing. The market for T206s is healthy and predictable.

Having said that, Wagner on Caramel cards - like Cobb - will often see pretty strong prices. So I wouldn't imagine there would be too much trouble if you wanted to resell at some point in the near future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

E103s are highly desirable, for me anyhow, disagree with you there.

[Rhotchkiss]

Peter, I have actually noticed that E103's, at least Cobbs and Wagners, etc tend to have higher prices, so perhaps you are right there. That's likely the result of the relative scarcity of E103s, as their population seems to be more in line with E105s and E92 Crofts than other cards I suggested may be less desirable, but that's a topic for another thread. Regardles, good point and noted.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

1. How desirable are E cards today compared to (a) T206, (b) other T cards, and (c) compared to their desirability a decade ago?

2. It appears that the value of E cards are down substantially since 2006-2008. Is this accurate, and if so (a) why?, and (b) do you feel they have bottomed out (and will rise) or is their fall in value to continue?

3. Do you care about the various back variations on the cards, or is it all about the front pose; take for example E90, E92, E101, E102, E105 (maybe E106), etc., which all have the same fronts but many different backs, and would you pay up for a scarce front/back combo (like a Wagner blue crofts candy or a crofts cocoa)?

4. Would you agree that the E92/E101 (those listed above) front poses are more desirable than other candy/caramel issues, like E91 E93, E94, E95, E98, etc?

5. Related to question 4 -- what is the "T206" of E cards?

Thanks and cant wait to read the responses

1a) not even close
1b) fairly close but generally lagging a bit behind
1c) not even close

2a) It seems to me that when the market hit its peak about a decade ago the overall emphasis on rarity compared to aesthetics and key stars was much higher than it is now.
2b) I don't expect much change over the next several years; that is, I don't particularly expect either a rebound or a continued decline.

3) Yes I care about the backs. Yes I care about the fronts. I don't care about the combo per se.

4) Mostly, but with some exceptions. I'd put E94 ahead of E92 for example.

5) E90-1, and I think that really explains why the T cards are more popular. The quality of the artwork on T206s is much greater than on E90-1s. That's true of T vs. E in general.

[x2drich2000]

No one cares about caramels so walk, no, run away as fast as you can

In all seriousness, Pete and I have the same feeling about T206 vs caramel.
One of the main reasons I moved on to caramels is cause they are generally much harder to find then T206. I look at this way, if you go to a big show such as Philly/White Plains/etc and $ wasn't a factor, you could probably come close to building a complete T206 set minus the big four (and probably could get at least a good lead on those as well). On the other hand, I doubt you would be able to put together any E90-E106 set and likely wouldn't even get half way unless someone was breaking a set. Over the past 3 or 4 years, I think I've found only 3 E92 nadjas (excluding the St. Louis players). Most of the time when I ask dealers at shows if they have have any caramels they look at me like I have 3 heads.

The reason you see so many more of the E92/101/102 family of sets is just due to so many different varieties having the same front compared to sets like e93/e95/e96/etc which have unique poses for each set. Thus it seems the e92 family of sets appears to be more popular. Also, the E92 Dockman is one of the easier caramel sets to complete and includes both Wagners and Mathewson which make those cards appear much more frequently than the other caramel sets.

1 other thing that I think is consistently overlooked is certain players in the E92 family are easy with one back compared to others with the same back, but with a different back, may be harder much harder. Young is a great example, compared to other E105's, his card is very easy. Same with the crofts cocoa. However, with the nadja back is harder than most other nadjas. Same thing with Davis, his blue crofts candy and nadja are not terribly difficult, but I've never seen any indication that a black crofts candy, which in general should be easier, even exists.

As far as paying up for rare backs, I absolutely will

[x2drich2000]

I would also add there are few of us crazies who are building rare back/master color/player back run caramel sets which drive certain color/back/player combination up to insane levels for cards that we still need.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Since Caramels suck, I would be glad to buy the red batting Wagner you were showing cheap.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nothing wrong with these aesthetics IMO.

[Rhotchkiss]

I love those Red Crofts -- I have seen you post them before and think they are so cool.

In addition to genuinely wondering what those with much more "E"-xperience thought about my questions, I am really also (mostly) interested in what the heck happened, such that E (and D) cards are trading at 50% (often less) than they did 10 years ago, and whether I am throwing money away buying players like Wagner and Cobb with these backs, rather than just loading up on T206s; of course with Wagner, you are stuck with E, D and PCs. I have dabbled in Young and Matty, and luckily I have stayed away from the Collins and Benders and Evers of the world (even held off on Lajoie, Tinker, Keeler), but still, Wagner and Cobb E cards are NOT cheap and I am finding myself looking for the cards more and more -- smart, dumb, neither, dont care, dont know?

I guess the real question -- and please continue to answer the others -- is: are E cards of Wagner, Cobb, Young, and Matty good investments or not? And if so, are the E92-fronts (for a lack of better description) more, less or same as far as desirability as other E-card variations?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think you're going to get very good answers on what is a good investment and what is not. We just don't know, and anyhow everyone is going to tell you something different. For what little to nothing it's worth, my opinion is that T206s and Cracker Jacks are probably the two prewar issues most likely at least to retain value, but that's just my opinion. As to why E and D cards dropped, what can anyone possibly say except that the demand went down, this isn't like a stock where you can analyze why it went up or down by reviewing the company's performance.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nothing wrong with these aesthetics IMO.

Exceptions rather than rules, don't you think?

[brianp-beme]

1. How desirable are E cards today compared to (a) T206, (b) other T cards, and (c) compared to their desirability a decade ago?

.....1a. They have their fans, but trail wildly behind T206 (check out my E90-1 thread versus the T206 Monster thread).
.....1b. They also lag behind T205, but overall just slightly behind the other T cards, which for the most part are more for the more serious collector.
.....1c. Their value and interest is way down...back in their heyday on this forum there were almost as many threads and interest in caramel cards as the T206 set (gasp!)


2. It appears that the value of E cards are down substantially since 2006-2008. Is this accurate, and if so (a) why?, and (b) do you feel they have bottomed out (and will rise) or is their fall in value to continue?

.....2a. The cards are definitely down in value since then. I believe this was due to the rise of the internet and ebay specifically and how it revealed relative scarcity in collectibles in general, making this info more easily obtainable and more widely known than it was previously. Collectors at this time seemed to realize that the small e-cards were definitely scarcer, and collecting them became somewhat of a fad.

.....2b. They will rise, but T206 will still be king.



3. Do you care about the various back variations on the cards, or is it all about the front pose; take for example E90, E92, E101, E102, E105 (maybe E106), etc., which all have the same fronts but many different backs, and would you pay up for a scarce front/back combo (like a Wagner blue crofts candy or a crofts cocoa)?

.....3. I collect vintage preWW2 cards and have done so for a long time, so of course I care. Would/do I pay up for front/back combos? I rarely pony up for anything. I am a cheap bastard.


4. Would you agree that the E92/E101 (those listed above) front poses are more desirable than other candy/caramel issues, like E91 E93, E94, E95, E98, etc?

.....4. I would say not necessarily so. I think collectors view the whole group (except for the E91 sets...which, dangit, are not generic!) on a somewhat similar level, with collectors of course having personal favorites.


5. Related to question 4 -- what is the "T206" of E cards?

.....5. In terms of set size and relative scarcity of cards within a set, I believe E90-1 is the closest E-card set comparison to the T206 set. I have always thought that the E95 and E96 cards are extremely attractive, and if they were instead just one set (and perhaps closer to 100 quantity total instead), they would be the most popular E-card set. I believe the smaller set size of the caramel sets has always been a limiting factor in their overall popularity to collectors...sometimes we just like to have something that we can dig in for the long haul.


Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Exceptions rather than rules, don't you think?

I think a good chunk of the E90-1 set has its own, bold aesthetic charm. Maybe overall they are not as artistically rendered as the run of the mill T206 subject, but quite often they make up some ground with their vibrant use of color.

Brian

Cracker Jacks say hello

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Exceptions rather than rules, don't you think?

Not necessarily. I can think of a number of E cards that are still on my want list. And the T206s are not all great either, some that don't look much like the player (Johnson pitching, Mathewson portrait, for example) don't do anything for me.

[DeanH3]

I too have pondered the will e-cards come roaring back question. Everything is cyclical and I believe they will eventually. Maybe not roar back, but I do think the T206 back interest will spill over the the scarcer E backs and prices will rise.

I also believe that Cobb and Wagner will always be good investments. Moreso with Wagner and his E cards due to the fact that that's really all a collector has to go after with Wagner.

I would definitely pay a premium on a scarce back for Cobb or Wagner. Even if the demand is not what it once was, they don't grow on trees. Cobb and Wagner will ALWAYS be in demand.

good luck Ryan. There are some great scarce Cobb and Wager e issues out there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[quote=deanh3;1765943}

i also believe that cobb and wagner will always be good investments. Moreso with wagner and his e cards due to the fact that that's really all a collector has to go after with wagner.
[/quote]

m116.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

m116.

Also D304, D322, and if you count oversized items, D381, M110 & M101-2

[oldjudge]

Ryan--If you like backs and nice images try the M101-4/5 Wagners. I think you'll find the backs challenging and fun.

[brianp-beme]

Of course 'Big Hands' Wagner is also found in the E135 Collins McCarthy set, and the E254 Colgan's Chips (no big hands in this issue).

Also, I don't think you can go wrong (or at least not throwing money away) in wisely picking up the big name Hall of Famers...they only have gotten consistently stronger over the years, and any downturns in value have quickly rebounded.

Brian

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Ryan--If you like backs and nice images try the M101-4/5 Wagners. I think you'll find the backs challenging and fun.

Totally, but I am focusing on Joe Jackson in these cards (Wags is a bit old at this point). I already have the Famous & Barr and the Gimbels. I find the M101-4/5 and the E121 and similar to be very cool from a backs perspective.

[gabrinus]

Just don't start collecting T216s and D303s.....that will drive you crazy........Jerry

[oldjudge]

Brian-Funny! I never noticed the hands.

[ValKehl]

Ryan, I am not a set collector, so my opinion as to what the "T206 of E cards" is may not be worth much. But, if a poll were done, I believe E145 would win over E90-1.

And, I absolutely love the various advertising backs of the M101-4/5, E135, and E121 cards - the scarcer they are, the more interest I have!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ryan, I am not a set collector, so my opinion as to what the "T206 of E cards" is may not be worth much. But, if a poll were done, I believe E145 would win over E90-1.

And, I absolutely love the various advertising backs of the M101-4/5, E135, and E121 cards - the scarcer they are, the more interest I have!

I don't think the OP was thinking about Cracker Jacks as an E card, although of course technically they are.

[sb1]

The answer and probably the solution to #2, is that 3-4 of the big Registry guys got out for various reasons and the other few have completed their sets(upgrading sporadically), and there was not enough demand on the higher end cards to keep the prices at prior levels.

So....until a few serious high end Registry set collectors get back into the various E series they will probably remain soft, except for the key HOFers. At this point even the high grade commons and lower tier HOFers are on sale until they see a reemergence in set collectors.

[rhettyeakley]

Although they are not everyone’s favorite as they are nearly all studio portraits (which I absolutely love) the most comprehensive E-card set of the 1910 era was the E254 Colgan’S Chips set, especially if one also includes the E270 Tin Tops into the mix as there are roughly 300-400 diff players among those two sets.

Obviously nobody is going to call round cards the size of a silver dollar the E-card version of the T206 set as they aren’t in the shape or form we expect “baseball cards” to be in. That being said it is the most comprehensive issue that has Major Leaguers of the era not called T206 (T210 and Zeenuts are obviously larger but are Minor Leaguers and not all Pinkertons have been accounted for.)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Although they are not everyone’s favorite as they are nearly all studio portraits (which I absolutely love) the most comprehensive E-card set of the 1910 era was the E254 Colgan’S Chips set, especially if one also includes the E270 Tin Tops into the mix as there are roughly 300-400 diff players among those two sets.

Obviously nobody is going to call round cards the size of a silver dollar the E-card version of the T206 set as they aren’t in the shape or form we expect “baseball cards” to be in. That being said it is the most comprehensive issue that has Major Leaguers of the era not called T206 (T210 and Zeenuts are obviously larger but are Minor Leaguers and not all Pinkertons have been accounted for.)

When I see Colgan's I am always seeing cards I don't think I have seen before/often. There are definitely a lot of players relative to most other early sets, except those mentioned. I like E cards for their aesthetics, as they are from simpler times, and have a lot of nostalgia to me. As far as values, I will differ to what others above said. I would vote E90-1 the T206 of E cards therefore there could be a rise in them before others, if some collectors get interested. Also, as a longtime back collector I enjoy the backs on the different varieties too.

[toolman tj]

The whole reason I love collecting is the beautiful backgrounds on a lot of these cards. These sets are some of the most artistic in the hobby. Just my two cents.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I love T206s. I love the "monstrosity" of the set, I love the players and the poses, and most of all, I love the various back advertisements. But, as much as I love T206s, and can include by extension T213, T214, and T215s, I collect other prewar cards; actually, I collect certain prewar players, and thus, collect other, non-T206 prewar cards. Lately, I have jumped headfirst into Mr. Honus Wagner Cards, which has me buying things like post cards, confectionary cards and E cards (because obviously there are few T cards of Wags). Which brings me to the point of this thread.

Below I list a number of questions. While I would appreciate feedback on each, please feel free to respond to one or two inquiries only.

1. How desirable are E cards today compared to (a) T206, (b) other T cards, and (c) compared to their desirability a decade ago?

2. It appears that the value of E cards are down substantially since 2006-2008. Is this accurate, and if so (a) why?, and (b) do you feel they have bottomed out (and will rise) or is their fall in value to continue?

3. Do you care about the various back variations on the cards, or is it all about the front pose; take for example E90, E92, E101, E102, E105 (maybe E106), etc., which all have the same fronts but many different backs, and would you pay up for a scarce front/back combo (like a Wagner blue crofts candy or a crofts cocoa)?

4. Would you agree that the E92/E101 (those listed above) front poses are more desirable than other candy/caramel issues, like E91 E93, E94, E95, E98, etc?

5. Related to question 4 -- what is the "T206" of E cards?

Thanks and cant wait to read the responses

Oddly enough, I have more E cards and T206 cards in my smallish collection. In fact, the only T-cards I have in my current collection is a Cy Young glove showing and a Ty Cobb green portrait.

1) have three guesses why T206 are more popular. a) along with 33 Goudey they are the go to type for prewar, b) the "monster" makes a hobby on its own to collect for set/back collectors and c) there is a large enough population size of high grade for those who collect and enough demand to keep them scarce. The high grade cards sets new highs at the auction and lifts all boats. Also add the stories of Wagner and you got, the monster. The E cards, before the black swamp find was mainly in lower condition, and rightfully so as they were catered to kids to play with. The problem with the E98's is that ther eis such a bifurcation of grade conditions; either lousy or nrmt-mt. And 700+ copies of it was just found so we are still digesting through them...

2) Actually it was the decline in value that attracted me to E-cards. Sort of gave me a (hopefully not false) sense of "margin of safety" in what I was buying. That said, I went through two card cycles since the late 80's, so I don't mind holding onto what I have and losing money. I didnt buy them as investments. But at the same time, I dont expect to lose money on these because there is a proxy of value from its more expensive tobacco brothers...

3) I think the board answered with the back variations. Problem is they are scarce already so its really tough to gain traction of a following. Will likely rise in value, who knows, but definitely more volatile in price. To answer your question, I will pay more for a more difficult back. The million dollar question is how much more, and given the scarcity already, I would rather look for condition and visual appeal than a scarce back.

4) I prefer the cracker jacks as the most iconic E cards and has most appreciation potential beyond the fact they are already among the most expensive E cards.

5) And I think the board answered the T206, which is the E90-1.

[Bridwell]

I love finding E cards I can buy for half the price they had previously sold for. Happy to buy them and add to my collection. Lots of great E card designs, especially E94, E98 and E103. Over many years, the prices seem to gradually increase on pretty much any pre-war cards in decent condition. As others have said, it is only a matter of time before big-time collectors start new Registry Sets on the E cards. The competition will drive prices back up.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

I love finding E cards I can buy for half the price they had previously sold for. Happy to buy them and add to my collection. Lots of great E card designs, especially E94, E98 and E103. Over many years, the prices seem to gradually increase on pretty much any pre-war cards in decent condition. As others have said, it is only a matter of time before big-time collectors start new Registry Sets on the E cards. The competition will drive prices back up.

+1. Most mid-tier E's are great buys relative to 10-15 yrs ago. I too think they have some room to move up.

[pgconboy]

I've just started picking up some 1909-1911 cards due to an all time sports team project I've been working on.
I don't have a Cobb or Wagner yet so I've been thinking about making sure to get them in the same set so that on the chance I wanted to try a complete set I would be well on my way.
As a result, I think I am going to go with e95. I wish there was a 25-35 card set in color that had Cobb/Wagner/WJ/Matty. E91A/B/C has the players, but the set is quite large given my interest. M116s have the players, but too many. And as a whole I like e95 pictures over e93. Still checking out all the other various sets.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pgconboy

I've just started picking up some 1909-1911 cards due to an all time sports team project I've been working on.
I don't have a Cobb or Wagner yet so I've been thinking about making sure to get them in the same set so that on the chance I wanted to try a complete set I would be well on my way.
As a result, I think I am going to go with e95. I wish there was a 25-35 card set in color that had Cobb/Wagner/WJ/Matty. E91A/B/C has the players, but the set is quite large given my interest. M116s have the players, but too many. And as a whole I like e95 pictures over e93. Still checking out all the other various sets.

They will be much better buys than they were 10'ish -15 yrs ago..Though the high end HOF'ers have stayed closer to what they were.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

I too have pondered the will e-cards come roaring back question. Everything is cyclical and I believe they will eventually. Maybe not roar back, but I do think the T206 back interest will spill over the the scarcer E backs and prices will rise.

I also believe that Cobb and Wagner will always be good investments. Moreso with Wagner and his E cards due to the fact that that's really all a collector has to go after with Wagner.

I would definitely pay a premium on a scarce back for Cobb or Wagner. Even if the demand is not what it once was, they don't grow on trees. Cobb and Wagner will ALWAYS be in demand.

good luck Ryan. There are some great scarce Cobb and Wager e issues out there.

Not too long ago, a E102 Cobby PSA 5 went at auction (Heritage, I think) for close to $30k. A lot of collectors still feel this is Ty's RC despite REA's opinion otherwise.

[MR RAREBACK]

My favorite E card

[ullmandds]

edited for redundancy

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

My favorite E card

only 14? all e's...no t's?

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

My favorite E card

Just curious, do all of your E92 croft's candy Mathewsons have black backs?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Just curious, do all of your E92 croft's candy Mathewsons have black backs?

thanks for asking...i was curious as well! You need some t's and d's!

[MR RAREBACK]

Yes all black

[MR RAREBACK]

Some t's

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

Some t's

wrong pose...the rare backed t's and d's have the horiz pose! .

But seriously...you're hoard is INSANE!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

Some t's

You apparently like certain poses. Nice.

[Rhotchkiss]

Very impressive. I’d love to see that in person some day. It really is amazing (and I have seen pics of your green Cobbs and Hindu backs, so I assume there are many more awesome hoards)

[Bliggity]

Did someone say caramels? Sorry I'm late to the party!

Over the past two years I have really fallen in love with the E92-family sets. I know I am in the minority on this board (maybe not in this thread though?), but I actually don't care for the lithography in the T206 set, and I'm not big on portraits. Instead, I like the bold colors, sunsets, and action poses of the caramels from this era. The Dooin, Magee, Schaefer, Mathewson, and others are some of my all-time favorite cards. Incidentally, I'm not as big a fan of E90-1 even though there is significant overlap, because of all the portraits.

Plus, this family is a set-collector's dream. The sets are small enough to be manageable, and range from the very doable (Dockman), to the impossible (red Croft's), and all stops in-between. Back runs abound. The E106 set, with its glossy fronts and wild colors, is actually my favorite of the bunch, although quality control was perhaps at its lowest.

Not pictured: a few T216s, D303s, and Tangos (though I consider them to be honorary caramels).

[pgconboy]

Great picture, I am a sucker for the sunset versions.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Did someone say caramels? Sorry I'm late to the party!

Over the past two years I have really fallen in love with the E92-family sets. I know I am in the minority on this board (maybe not in this thread though?), but I actually don't care for the lithography in the T206 set, and I'm not big on portraits. Instead, I like the bold colors, sunsets, and action poses of the caramels from this era. The Dooin, Magee, Schaefer, Mathewson, and others are some of my all-time favorite cards. Incidentally, I'm not as big a fan of E90-1 even though there is significant overlap, because of all the portraits.

Plus, this family is a set-collector's dream. The sets are small enough to be manageable, and range from the very doable (Dockman), to the impossible (red Croft's), and all stops in-between. Back runs abound. The E106 set, with its glossy fronts and wild colors, is actually my favorite of the bunch, although quality control was perhaps at its lowest.

Not pictured: a few T216s, D303s, and Tangos (though I consider them to be honorary caramels).

Beautiful!!!