Absurd PWCC Shipping Cost........BEWARE

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

Prices are all over the place. I have seen some as cheap as 6-9 dollars and some all the way up, like PWCC's, over $65. There is no way it costs PWCC that much money to insure, with tracking on cards less than $100-$150 dollars.

Like I have mentioned numerous times before, they are making bank with their shipping fees.

They're disclosed, and there is no coercion, so I guess I don't really see the issue. Nothing wrong with making a profit, if they are.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They're disclosed, and there is no coercion, so I guess I don't really see the issue. Nothing wrong with making a profit, if they are.

It's against E-Bay rules to charge more for shipping than the actual cost, but we know how well that works.

Regardless, I didn't just stop purchasing from PWCC due to their shipping costs, but it will definitely be a deterrent in the future if I ever decide to again.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by irv

Nor would most people who had that kind of money to spend on cards.

My problem with their shipping, and others is, it doesn't make much sense paying more or equal amounts for shipping than what you paid for the card.

I was glad to read the OP got a rebate. I asked once, after winning a $20 card from them if there was anything they could do with the shipping, but all I got was a sorry, those are our fees.

I knew the cost going in so it's no ones fault but mine, but after that transaction, and others, I quickly started looking around a little more carefully/patiently and found many others out there who don't charge near what they charge, and that was before they raised their current shipping fees.

Originally Posted by soxandcubbies

I agree with Irv.

Knowing a little bit about what it costs Irv to have cards shipped to Canada makes me question the sanity of Canadian card collectors on a budget. Actual costs are all that I will charge. Conservative valuations on customs forms can help our Canadian collector friends as well.

If I lived in Canada, I probably would not select a hobby that is postally dependent.

[irv]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Knowing a little bit about what it costs Irv to have cards shipped to Canada makes me question the sanity of Canadian card collectors on a budget. Actual costs are all that I will charge. Conservative valuations on customs forms can help our Canadian collector friends as well.

If I lived in Canada, I probably would not select a hobby that is postally dependent.

I question it too, Frank!

I have suspected, like what I have posted in post# 15 in this thread, is their shipping fees aren't based on actual costs, they are guesstimated. See for yourself that some of the fees make no sense based on value, or projected value.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=252091

And, from what I have also always thought is, depending where you live stateside, will also dictate what shipping will cost.

If I am not mistaken, the OP who started this thread and was/is complaining about PWCC shipping fees, also resides stateside.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by irv

It's against E-Bay rules to charge more for shipping than the actual cost, but we know how well that works.

Regardless, I didn't just stop purchasing from PWCC due to their shipping costs, but it will definitely be a deterrent in the future if I ever decide to again.

This is not correct from what I just read you are absolutely allowed to charge a handling fee making it more than actual shipping costs. They will step in if charges are way out of line but saying you can not charge more than exact shipping is wrong

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/s...policy?id=4346

The only way I would allow shipping costs to deter me from bidding is if it made the card more than I wanted to spend. I don’t find addition and subtraction that difficult so I just factor the shipping cost into my bids.

[irv]

Originally Posted by glynparson

This is not correct from what I just read you are absolutely allowed to charge a handling fee making it more than actual shipping costs. They will step in if charges are way out of line but saying you can not charge more than exact shipping is wrong

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/s...policy?id=4346

The only way I would allow shipping costs to deter me from bidding is if it made the card more than I wanted to spend. I don’t find addition and subtraction that difficult so I just factor the shipping cost into my bids.

What are the guidelines?
Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you don't, you may be subject to a range of actions. We may limit, restrict, or suspend you from buying, selling, or using site features. All of your listings may be removed, displayed lower or not shown in search results, without refunding any or all applicable fees. You may also forfeit special account status and any discounts. You may be subject to the application of fees and recovery of our expenses in policy monitoring and enforcement.

Shipping and handling costs
Be sure to specify shipping costs and related service charges in your listings.

What to charge

Actual shipping cost: This is the amount for shipping the item. It should be what you paid the carrier.
Handling cost: This can include the cost of packaging materials and insurance cost, if any.

Well, I guess it's all in how you interpret what it says above?
That aside, even with insurance, tracking and packaging, unless your item is being shipped in a bomb and theft proof iron box, there is no way it is costing them remotely close to what they are charging.

[rdixon1208]

I just bought a card from them last week. I paid $428 for the card. Shipping was $6.

[markf31]

Running some quick cost estimates on the UPS website gave me this. Shipping from Lake Oswego, Oregon to Thunder Bay Ontario (because I like the name Thunder Bay). The package details and dimensions are for a 400 count card box shipped with a declared value of just $40.

The quoted shipping cost is $39.07. It might drop a little for a larger metropolitan area in Canada such as Toronto though. Is that a lot for a $40 item, yes of course. But I dont see how any fault lies with PWCC as it would seem they are charging what the actual shipping cost for them is, or very close to it.

[jb217676]

I keep it quite simple. I don't bid on PWCC or Probstein auctions because of what they charge Canadians. I can find plenty to bid on with shipping charges anywhere from $2-$10. I just hate paying a minimum of $20-$32 in shipping from PWCC or Probstein.
Jeff

[irv]

Originally Posted by markf31

Running some quick cost estimates on the UPS website gave me this. Shipping from Lake Oswego, Oregon to Thunder Bay Ontario (because I like the name Thunder Bay). The package details and dimensions are for a 400 count card box shipped with a declared value of just $40.

The quoted shipping cost is $39.07. It might drop a little for a larger metropolitan area in Canada such as Toronto though. Is that a lot for a $40 item, yes of course. But I dont see how any fault lies with PWCC as it would seem they are charging what the actual shipping cost for them is, or very close to it.

Well, first off, TB is another 15 hrs north of me or 1427 kms so I am sure it would be more to ship there as opposed to where I am (just east of Toronto)

Regardless, if you go back and read this thread, you will see for yourself it's not just us Canucks who are complaining about PWCC's shipping, it's Americans as well.
For what it's worth, I just received a pkg worth $400 American the other day.
The cards were in top loaders sandwiched between taped cardboard wrapped in plastic placed inside a small box which was placed in a styrofoam peanut filled larger box placed inside a padded large Purolator envelope which was insured and had tracking all for $22 dollars.

Originally Posted by jb217676

I keep it quite simple. I don't bid on PWCC or Probstein auctions because of what they charge Canadians. I can find plenty to bid on with shipping charges anywhere from $2-$10. I just hate paying a minimum of $20-$32 in shipping from PWCC or Probstein.
Jeff

I hear you, Jeff. Probstein never shipped to Canada not that long ago but I assume they realized they were losing money so they decided to change that.

I have never purchased from Probstein and it's been a year or longer since I last did with PWCC. I don't see anything changing in that regard with them anytime soon.

[bobbyw8469]

Regardless, if you go back and read this thread, you will see for yourself it's not just us Canucks who are complaining about PWCC's shipping, it's Americans as well.
For what it's worth, I just received a pkg worth $400 American the other day.
The cards were in top loaders sandwiched between taped cardboard wrapped in plastic placed inside a small box which was placed in a styrofoam peanut filled larger box placed inside a padded large Purolator envelope which was insured and had tracking all for $22 dollars.

Seems awful cheap. Canadians need to realize. It is NOT AMERICANS FAULT that it cost an arm an a leg to ship to Canada. Canada is considered international.

[irv]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Seems awful cheap. Canadians need to realize. It is NOT AMERICANS FAULT that it cost an arm an a leg to ship to Canada. Canada is considered international.

My mistake, it likely wasn't insured?

"New message from: worldchamps00 Top Rated Seller(342Turquoise Star)
Sorry , no shipping to Canada unless you want to pay for Priority shipping $22. This is the only way to get tracking."

But then I received this from them, which they did. Needless to say, I will be purchasing from them again.

New message from: worldchamps00 Top Rated Seller(342Turquoise Star)
Hey, If not to late, I'll ship to Canada if you want to bid. THis lot has exceeded my expectation, so I'll pay the extra shipping if you win. Thanks for the info and good luck if you bid

[A2000]

As far as I know, there are no cheap methods to shipping from US to Canada with tracking. And if you're shipping to Canada without tracking, you're taking a big risk because sooner or later, someone will say they never got their package and you'll be screwed.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Seems awful cheap. Canadians need to realize. It is NOT AMERICANS FAULT that it cost an arm an a leg to ship to Canada. Canada is considered international.

It is also not an American seller's fault if they actually want to comply with the law and claim the appropriate item value on the customs form either.

[irv]

Originally Posted by A2000

As far as I know, there are no cheap methods to shipping from US to Canada with tracking. And if you're shipping to Canada without tracking, you're taking a big risk because sooner or later, someone will say they never got their package and you'll be screwed.

Originally Posted by tschock

It is also not an American seller's fault if they actually want to comply with the law and claim the appropriate item value on the customs form either.

I get all that, but it still doesn't take away that what they charge is excessive.

Read post #15 like I mentioned earlier. They have trimmed/suspect cards being charged more for shipping than the same cards that got a grade.

Like I have also mentioned/noticed, it seems the shipping stateside is not equal as well?
Some look to pay relatively good fees while others, especially those who are complaining in the thread, pay a lot more? Why is that?

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I think everyone has opened their mailbox with excitement to get their recent purchase and looked at the package and said "I can't believe this motherF+++++ shipped it this way!!" to themselves. Most of the time even with awful packaging the card arrives in fine condition and you move on. But what if it doesn't? The transaction went from exciting to stressful to potentially infuriating.

At least for me ... close to 100% of the time I think this is NOT because someone sent something in a flimsy manner. It's because they covered the package with enough tape to wrap an elephant, put it in a box large enough for a TV, had multiple layers of bubble wrap and taping inside ... and I need to go to school to get a PhD just so I could figure out how to open the freaking thing! And it was all for a low grade, $4 common.

Those sellers I stop buying from immediately. I figure since I'm not driving a hybrid ... this is my contribution to saving the planet. You're all welcome.

Cheers,
patrick

[bbsports]

It seems like most people are blaming P.W.C.C.. and I don't think it's all their fault. I think Dale mentioned it in one of his threads. Several years ago, e-bay was going after sellers who overcharge on shipping. It was listed in e-bay's rules. It seems today that has changed. Today P.W.C.C. is considered one of the top auction houses in the country, so e-bay gets a lot of business from them. They most likely will not say anything about it. My complaint with P.W.C.C. is shipping time. Here in N.J., we have problems with U.P.S.. Packages take longer to receive from this company using U.P.S. than shipping the items first class. All card purchases are over $2000., P.W.C.C. ships U.P.S. You must contact them to request you want your shipping sent a different way.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by irv

I get all that, but it still doesn't take away that what they charge is excessive.

Read post #15 like I mentioned earlier. They have trimmed/suspect cards being charged more for shipping than the same cards that got a grade.

Like I have also mentioned/noticed, it seems the shipping stateside is not equal as well?
Some look to pay relatively good fees while others, especially those who are complaining in the thread, pay a lot more? Why is that?

Irv,

I get what you are saying as well. And what they charge may be excessive or inconsistent (within the same weight/value range). However as a buyer, I tend to calculate what it costs me out of pocket in total. So I buy based on that. If I think something is excessive (ie shipping), then I might ask before (or even after) I buy the item if that can be adjusted. The inconsistency is definitely a head-scratcher (to be nice), but it is within your control (whether or not to buy).

What isn't (directly) within your control is how much it should cost to safely and effectively ship internationally within the laws/guidelines of the receiving country. I highly suspect that some of the cheap shipping some sellers provide may be 'shorting' something (risk, import value, insurance, etcl), or building it into the price of the item itself.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I just bought a card from them last week. I paid $428 for the card. Shipping was $6.

I would be asking for the $.50 they over charged you. Seller's just steal everything they can don't they! LOL


I am not reading this whole thread but am just making a comment based on a few remarks I read.

I will say there has been times I have over charged on shipping, times where it hasn't been enough to cover it, and even times where I felt sending a note with the few dollars back in the package explaining the refund for shipping because it didn't cost me that much. Not a single time was I ever contacted and thanked for any of that other than overcharging. Simply because of the A$$hole nature of human beings I no longer care and left overs go in the Green column of the ledger now.

[Stevenice1]

Interesting...i've always found that PWCC is pretty fair with shipping costs considering the card is insured as well. However, if you are looking for similar quality and free shipping and insurance, you may want to look at www.cardboardpicasso.com. They have an Ebay store too but the prices on their direct site are always cheaper.

[tsalem]

I will chime in and just going off the top of my head here...
I ship to Canada a lot!
Up 1-8 oz is approx $10(sometimes less) with tracking door to door to Canada
9oz to 15 oz I think is around $14 with tracking. 1 pound on up it gets real expensive.
These prices do not include signature or insurance, just delivery confirmation

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Stevenice1

Interesting...i've always found that PWCC is pretty fair with shipping costs considering the card is insured as well. However, if you are looking for similar quality and free shipping and insurance, you may want to look at www.cardboardpicasso.com. They have an Ebay store too but the prices on their direct site are always cheaper.

Why is it you just joined and every single post has been an ad for that business?? It is clearly your business, so cut the crap and stop spamming the threads!!!

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Stevenice1

Interesting...i've always found that PWCC is pretty fair with shipping costs considering the card is insured as well. However, if you are looking for similar quality and free shipping and insurance, you may want to look at www.cardboardpicasso.com. They have an Ebay store too but the prices on their direct site are always cheaper.

since you are giving an opinion of 2 different businesses, how about posting your name?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

since you are giving an opinion of 2 different businesses, how about posting your name?

100%. Post your name, admit you are affiliated with this site, and introduce yourself. I just checked out your site and you have decent stuff and apparently decent pricing (I don’t really know much after 1920). I think board members would like to know another/new good dealer. So stop with the douchey plugs and adds and just introduce yourself and your outfit.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

since you are giving an opinion of 2 different businesses, how about posting your name?

Gone

[Peter_Spaeth]

That was a quick ban yikes.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That was a quick ban yikes.

local guy too. He asked about advertising. I guess he thought spamming was the answer. LOL

[Rhotchkiss]

If I knew how to, I would drop a clapping emoji

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Gone

LOL just pictured a very long hook yanking him off stage.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

local guy too. He asked about advertising. I guess he thought spamming was the answer. LOL

He decided to take advertising into his own hands.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by jfkheat

I have bought cards from PWCC before and waited to pay because there is something else ending a day or two later that I also want. They have always combined shipping. If you win a card and pay that day then a day or two later win another one that won't combine because the first one is already packed and probably shipped.
James

As strictly a buyer on eBay, I read a lot of threads here on lousy buyers. When I buy something, I try to pay for it within 24 hours. Now you're telling me I should hold off paying because I'm paying more for doing that?

If the case is PWCC will combine shipping on items bought over a few days, then document that fact.

Originally Posted by tsalem

I will chime in and just going off the top of my head here...
I ship to Canada a lot!
Up 1-8 oz is approx $10(sometimes less) with tracking door to door to Canada
9oz to 15 oz I think is around $14 with tracking. 1 pound on up it gets real expensive.
These prices do not include signature or insurance, just delivery confirmation

As I said earlier, it simply feels like a cash grab. It is based on the estimated value of the card. A $20 PSA 8 and a $2,000 PSA 8 would be the same cost for shipping (without insurance), as it's the same packaging!!!!

Not that long ago PWCC shipping rates were reasonable. Now, not so much. UPS shipping rates have not gone up equally to the rates PWCC charges. And to confirm what Dale said , they are much higher than the outrageous Global Shipping Program.

Now if we are talking insurance, I looked up the posted UPS insurance rates for both domestic and international shipping. It is .90 (cents) per $100 of insurance (minimum of $2.40). Basically 1% of the value. So based on my example, the $20 PSA 8 costs $2.40 for insurance, and the $2000 PSA 8 costs $18 for insurance. PWCC shipping costs are way above this differential.

To quote someone earlier, I am pretty good at math too, and this does not add up to anything other than a cash grab.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by calvindog

LOL just pictured a very long hook yanking him off stage.

Originally Posted by calvindog

He decided to take advertising into his own hands.

A two tool mod

First the Hammer

Then the Hook

stage-hook.jpg

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

As strictly a buyer on eBay, I read a lot of threads here on lousy buyers. When I buy something, I try to pay for it within 24 hours. Now you're telling me I should hold off paying because I'm paying more for doing that?

If the case is PWCC will combine shipping on items bought over a few days, then document that fact.

My last PWCC purchase were April 15th and 16th. The first card shipping was $4. The second was $6. I waited until the 16th to pay. Total shipping I paid was $7. I used eBay Bucks as part of the payment.
James


https://www.ebay.com/itm/401518567345

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401518085756

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was charged $12 on a recent purchase of a single card (oversized) under $300, but I just factored it into my bid so it was irrelevant really.

[irv]

Originally Posted by glynparson

This is not correct from what I just read you are absolutely allowed to charge a handling fee making it more than actual shipping costs. They will step in if charges are way out of line but saying you can not charge more than exact shipping is wrong

The only way I would allow shipping costs to deter me from bidding is if it made the card more than I wanted to spend. I don’t find addition and subtraction that difficult so I just factor the shipping cost into my bids.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was charged $12 on a recent purchase of a single card (oversized) under $300, but I just factored it into my bid so it was irrelevant really.

What an eye opener it was when I got this addition/subtraction thing figured out just over a year ago. I learned that $20 + $20 (Card and shipping fee) equalled $40! Who knew?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by irv

What an eye opener it was when I got this addition/subtraction thing figured out just over a year ago. I learned that $20 + $20 (Card and shipping fee) equalled $40! Who knew?

It’s only the beginning, Irv, wait until you learn how quantum physics can reduce your shipping costs.

[irv]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

It’s only the beginning, Irv, wait until you learn how quantum physics can reduce your shipping costs.

My book is ordered, Frank. I am eagerly awaiting its arrival with unmitigated glee in anticipation of how much knowledge I am going to gather from the pages within!

[Peter_Spaeth]

You may learn to concatenate.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You may learn to concatenate.

I have trouble concentrating, let alone concatenating.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

The good is their shipping is quick. The bad is if you win another item the next day, it's another full shipping charge.

This is false. Below is directly from their current descriptions:
"The chart below describes the shipping cost for multiple cards purchased from the same auction.."

I'm pretty confident that "same auction" means the entire auction that is currently being run. Right now, they are running "2018 Premier Auction #4", and the different categories end on different days from 5/9 to 5/29.

They have always combined shipping for me for multiple wins, and across timelines that have spanned at least a week and sometimes more. I know in the past I've won cards in the 1887-1950 baseball, and then later in the 1888-1986 football, and had both shipped to me in one package under a combined rate. With the current auction, that's 13 days apart on end date.

They are very responsive to questions, so if you're ever in doubt just drop them a note through the eBay messaging system, tell them what you've won and what days have items you're still bidding on, and I'm sure they'll tell you it's fine and just let them know when you're done so they can send you a combined invoice.

I do know that they also use the "reminders" that eBay sends requesting payment after a few days, but that's just automated messaging based on those settings - it's not them trying to track you down to hurry up and pay. Again, if in doubt just drop them a message explaining your time line.

Back to the topic...I think what they do with cards is pretty good, obviously it's their main expertise and I've never felt the charges were exorbitant, especially when multiple cards were won. However, I don't think they're quite as accurate with some of the larger items.

Specifically, they had some autographed Heisman mini-helmets in the March auction. I won four them. Individual shipping per item was listed at $20 (which is absolutely crazy for a mini-helmet, that's easily twice what it really costs). They did combine shipping for me on all four, but that was still $40 (which is still crazy for four mini-helmets). They come 6 per box from Riddell, most eBay sellers charge $12-15 for the 6-pack.

I did factor the shipping into my bids, but after I won the first one I didn't worry as much about the combined shipping, even though it definitely ended up more than I thought it should have been. This one instance was bad, but in context of several dozen over the years it's not terrible. I'm sure if I said something next time they'd probably work with me.

Regarding Canada...I do feel bad for you guys, but it's not a straight forward issue. Customs alone is beyond any seller's control, and the PayPal refund guidelines don't assist much in that regard as I recall. I stopped shipping to Canada a few years ago now because of it, and would only consider now using the Global Shipping platform (which is pretty expensive I think). In the end, seems to me that trying to make Canada shipping work requires either an expensive card ($1,000 or more maybe) or several items at a time. One $12-20 card at a time just seems like a non-starter.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by bounce

This is false...

Sorry, David, but it did happen to me. Not sure how you can abjectly say it's not true when you simply don't know my circumstances.

As I explained earlier in this thread, it may be because I always try to pay the seller right away, which I did in my example. In the last auction, I paid immediately, which seems to have been my mistake.

I believe next time I will hold back on payment until the entire auction is done, as that's what my learning is with PWCC.

[sterlingfox]

I just had my own run-in with Bobby Rittenhouse of PWCC.

Last night, I won 6 cards totaling $153 before shipping. 5 the auctions had a shipping charge of $6, with the last being $4. Those 5 auctions with the $6 shipping charge had Mid-Sized SGC and PSA slabs. The one with the $4 charge was a standard sized PSA slab.

I was initially invoiced with a $30 combined shipping charge, which was then "reduced" to $20 with the help of Bobby Rittenhouse. He claims this is the correct charge. Absolutely ridiculous.

How does PWCC get away with this kind of gouging on the shipping cost? I've done tons of business with them over the past three and a half years and have always gotten charged fairly for combined shipping, even on orders with multiple medium and large sized slabs, until now.

Is anyone else in the same situation?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

I just had my own run-in with Bobby Rittenhouse of PWCC.

Last night, I won 6 cards totaling $153 before shipping. 5 the auctions had a shipping charge of $6, with the last being $4. Those 5 auctions with the $6 shipping charge had Mid-Sized SGC and PSA slabs. The one with the $4 charge was a standard sized PSA slab.

I was initially invoiced with a $30 combined shipping charge, which was then "reduced" to $20 with the help of Bobby Rittenhouse. He claims this is the correct charge. Absolutely ridiculous.

How does PWCC get away with this kind of gouging on the shipping cost? I've done tons of business with them over the past three and a half years and have always gotten charged fairly for combined shipping, even on orders with multiple medium and large sized slabs, until now.

Is anyone else in the same situation?

Speak with your wallet.

[sterlingfox]

Originally Posted by conor912

Speak with your wallet.

Duly noted.

I just don't want anyone else to get caught in the same situation.

Their "combined" shipping is now a joke. Expect to get fleeced!

[irv]

Originally Posted by sterlingfox

I just had my own run-in with Bobby Rittenhouse of PWCC.

Last night, I won 6 cards totaling $153 before shipping. 5 the auctions had a shipping charge of $6, with the last being $4. Those 5 auctions with the $6 shipping charge had Mid-Sized SGC and PSA slabs. The one with the $4 charge was a standard sized PSA slab.

I was initially invoiced with a $30 combined shipping charge, which was then "reduced" to $20 with the help of Bobby Rittenhouse. He claims this is the correct charge. Absolutely ridiculous.

How does PWCC get away with this kind of gouging on the shipping cost? I've done tons of business with them over the past three and a half years and have always gotten charged fairly for combined shipping, even on orders with multiple medium and large sized slabs, until now.

Is anyone else in the same situation?

It seems odd that some of you stateside pay differently than others. I assumed, based on the info within this thread, that everyone would pay the same but that clearly isn't the case it seems?

Like I mentioned somewhere in this thread, they are just winging it and their shipping fees are nowhere near what it costs them despite some defending them and justifying shipping costs, insurance, packaging, etc. They are clearly pocketing money, which is against E-Bay rules, but I assume those rules don't apply to everyone, or maybe no one?