T206 "Wagner" of Soccer Cards - Proposal

[Anish]

IMO, there is only one T206 Wagner. No other sport has a super short printed superstar card in one of it’s top 3 sets.

I’d never really heard of the 1913 Taddy set until you mentioned it and if there are only a few copies of each card, I don’t see how it can be highly collected. How many people are attempting that set?

I’ll take your word for it if this is the most valuable Pre-War card, but I don’t think there is any Wagner of soccer. And that’s perfectly fine.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Anish

IMO, there is only one T206 Wagner. No other sport has a super short printed superstar card in one of it’s top 3 sets.

I’d never really heard of the 1913 Taddy set until you mentioned it and if there are only a few copies of each card, I don’t see how it can be highly collected. How many people are attempting that set?

I’ll take your word for it if this is the most valuable Pre-War card, but I don’t think there is any Wagner of soccer. And that’s perfectly fine.

Boxing has the Leaf Graz (and Red Sun Jackson by my opinion)... I am speaking on a relative basis for the support... of course, nothing will compare to the Wagner but the question is what is the closest thing in soccer / football card collecting.

[Bored5000]

I admit that my knowledge of soccer cards pales in comparison to some of the posters on here, but I love learning about the iconic cards from other sports. I think the Billy Meredith card is way too obscure to be the "Wagner of soccer cards." The T206 Wagner has been famous for 100 years; the Meredith card has only been known for 15 years.

if we are going to force any soccer card into being the equivalent of the T206 Wagner, I think it is the Quigol Pele.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I admit that my knowledge of soccer cards pales in comparison to some of the posters on here, but I love learning about the iconic cards from other sports. I think the Billy Meredith is way too obscure to the "Wagner of soccer cards." The T206 Wagner has been famous for 100 years; the Meredith card has only been known for 15 years.

if we are going to force any soccer card into being the equivalent of the T206 Wagner, I think it is the Quigol Pele.

Fair enough. Certainly that is one of the most famous cards (and most valuable), so that would hit the mark for most. My criteria was a bit different. Onto a couple of the other points....

I can pretty much guarantee that most Brits would not know who Honus Wagner is, so I am not surprised that Billy Meredith seems obscure to US collectors. However, I am pretty sure that most Brits would have heard of Babe Ruth. I could be wrong, but I think that this is reasonable given the amount of cards issued overseas that include him (pretty much like Pele - the global super star with cards of him issued all over the world). Therefore, in defining my "Wagner" I was looking for a valuable card of an amazing player / HOFer from a highly collected prewar set that was not just the rookie card of the sports best player - that is easy. I was also trying to stay away from post war cards in the spirit of the Wagner (which would include all Pele cards).

BTW, Billy Meredith had a 20+ year career and have many cards issued of him and he (and Steve Bloomer) are probably the top two early British Football stars. Of course there is no true Wagner of soccer cards... was just hoping to have fun with some entrants and see what others thought.

This was just meant to be a fun conversation and I was hoping to get some other "entrants" to the game from other posters to see what other cards are out there.

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

I can pretty much guarantee that most Brits would not know who Honus Wagner is, so I am not surprised that Billy Meredith seems obscure to US collectors. However, I am pretty sure that most Brits would have heard of Babe Ruth. I could be wrong, but I think that this is reasonable given the amount of cards issued overseas that include him (pretty much like Pele - the global super star with cards of him issued all over the world). Therefore, in defining my "Wagner" I was looking for a valuable card of an amazing player / HOFer from a highly collected prewar set that was not just the rookie card of the sports best player - that is easy. I was also trying to stay away from post war cards in the spirit of the Wagner (which would include all Pele cards).

Very few people on this side of the pond would have heard of Honus Wagner. As for Babe Ruth? Most people into sports would have some knowledge of him but the most “famous” baseball player over here (insofar as the player most people, including those not interested in sporting history, could likely name) would be Joe DiMaggio. This is because of his relationship with Marilyn Monroe and, more so, the reference to him in the Simon & Garfunkel song.


Billy Meredith was, without doubt, an iconic player in the earlier years of the sport - although he probably played a bit too early for his name to be recognisable today. Anyone with an interest in British football history will, without doubt, know of him but, for those with a more general liking for the game, the pre-World War Two player they would likely be able to name is Dixie Dean and, without doubt, Stanley Matthews (although much of his career was post war).


I don’t know the card market but anything Meredith-related will command a premium given his Manchester United connection. Manchester United are, by some distance, the most collected British club and the prices achieved for rarer Manchester United items are vastly higher than those for any other team.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

Fair enough. Certainly that is one of the most famous cards (and most valuable), so that would hit the mark for most. My criteria was a bit different. Onto a couple of the other points....

I can pretty much guarantee that most Brits would not know who Honus Wagner is, so I am not surprised that Billy Meredith seems obscure to US collectors. However, I am pretty sure that most Brits would have heard of Babe Ruth. I could be wrong, but I think that this is reasonable given the amount of cards issued overseas that include him (pretty much like Pele - the global super star with cards of him issued all over the world). Therefore, in defining my "Wagner" I was looking for a valuable card of an amazing player / HOFer from a highly collected prewar set that was not just the rookie card of the sports best player - that is easy. I was also trying to stay away from post war cards in the spirit of the Wagner (which would include all Pele cards).

BTW, Billy Meredith had a 20+ year career and have many cards issued of him and he (and Steve Bloomer) are probably the top two early British Football stars. Of course there is no true Wagner of soccer cards... was just hoping to have fun with some entrants and see what others thought.

This was just meant to be a fun conversation and I was hoping to get some other "entrants" to the game from other posters to see what other cards are out there.

This is a great discussion, so don't take my opinion as criticism. I enjoy the discussion.

I think the Balas Futebol Pele card and the Taddy and Co. Billy Meredith card are just too rare to qualify as the Wagner of soccer cards. The Wagner T206 isn't at all rare relative to many pre-war baseball cards. Honus Wagner himself has several cards that are far, far more elusive than the T206. Much of the mystique of the Wagner T206 is because it at least circulates once in a while. That is why I would go with the Quigol Pele.

The card at least has to sell/go to auction once or twice a year or so IMO to be a Wagner equivalent. Look at some of the other cards that are often considered Wagner T206 equivalents -- the 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski for American football, the 1948 Bowman George Mikan for basketball, the C55 Georges Vezina for hockey. All those cards are from mainstream sets, yet none of those cards are impossible rarities.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

This is a great discussion, so don't take my opinion as criticism. I enjoy the discussion.

I think the Balas Futebol Pele card and the Taddy and Co. Billy Meredith card are just too rare to qualify as the Wagner of soccer cards. The Wagner T206 isn't at all rare relative to many pre-war baseball cards. Honus Wagner himself has several cards that are far, far more elusive than the T206. Much of the mystique of the Wagner T206 is because it at least circulates once in a while. That is why I would go with the Quigol Pele.

The card at least has to sell/go to auction once or twice a year or so IMO to be a Wagner equivalent. Look at some of the other cards that are often considered Wagner T206 equivalents -- the 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski for American football, the 1948 Bowman George Mikan for basketball, the C55 Georges Vezina for hockey. All those cards are from mainstream sets, yet none of those cards are impossible rarities.

Yeah... those are all good choices for the other sports... I would add the Rocky G Leaf for boxing as well. It is hard to say that any high dollar soccer cards have been auctioned until very recently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion, not knowing much about this, any topic in a soccer card discussion has to begin with Pele. So if he has a rare, expensive, but not impossible rookie -- that's a good enough analogue to the Wagner for me.

[Anish]

There’s a difference between an auction house calling a card a Wagner equivalent in order to promote it and the card actually being comparable based on the criteria established by Al.

The Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina all feature inaugural HOF inductees from top sets. However, none is a SSP. The Mikan and Nagurski are high number cards and accordingly relative short prints, but still readily available; I’ve owned all three of these cards but will never own a Wagner. It’s not rare for a Pre-War card but it’s incredibly rare relative to the rest of the non-SP’s in the set.

Graziano, from what I’ve just read, fits the criteria. I can’t think of any soccer card that does. The most popular sets from what I’ve seen are probably the Wills and Ogden’s tobacco cards, the AB&C Gum cards, and the Panini World Cup stickers...but I don’t even really know. Part of my goal in asking what everyone was collecting was to see which sets people are collecting. But this is just a small group of English speakers on a vintage baseball forum haha.

The Pele Quigol or other card might be the “Ruth RC” of soccer...but the Wagner is not even close to being a RC. That’s not what makes it *the* card.

Anyway, any discussion of vintage cards is a fun one in my opinion and I certainly don’t mean to shoot down other ideas while offering my own. I just don’t see a Wagner equivalent anywhere apart from boxing.

[samosa4u]

Interesting topic. Alright, let's look at the criteria Mr. Jurgela has:

1. Early superstar of the sport.

I think Honus Wagner would be known to baseball fans even if he didn't have his famous T206 card. The same isn't true for Meredith. I would say that 99.99 percent of soccer fans don't even know who he was. I didn't learn who he was until I got deep into soccer card collecting.

2. Highly collected set.

First you wrote "highly collected set," and then you proceeded by saying "for those of you who don't know this set." Funny. If this is a highly collected set, then you shouldn't have to explain it to us. Oh, and I have never heard of this Taddy set either.

And finally, it looks to me as if you selected Meredith because he played in the same era as Wagner, but it doesn't have to be this way.

My selection is this card below:

1957 Balas Futebol #11 Pele



This is the first card of the king. I am not sure how many examples exist, but it's extremely difficult to locate (so don't even try searching for it on eBay ) The above picture was taken from an album owned by the biggest soccer card collector in Brazil, Moacir Peres, a retired judge.

I would give up my whole entire soccer collection for this one card.

[Anish]

^Well, that’s an interesting item but from another set I’ve never heard of.

If there is a Quigol Garrincha that would be a Post-War equivalent (short printed, popular set). But there probably isn’t...

I think it makes most sense to establish what the most collected sets are and then see if there are any short print superstars.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Anish

^Well, that’s an interesting item but from another set I’ve never heard of.

If there is a Quigol Garrincha that would be a Post-War equivalent (short printed, popular set). But there probably isn’t...

I think it makes most sense to establish what the most collected sets are and then see if there are any short print superstars.

So what are some of those in your eyes? I noticed that some of the Greiling cards from the 1920's have some players who are extremely difficult to find.

Do you know of any SP's out there of superstars in either pre or post war?

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Interesting topic. Alright, let's look at the criteria Mr. Jurgela has:

1. Early superstar of the sport.

I think Honus Wagner would be known to baseball fans even if he didn't have his famous T206 card. The same isn't true for Meredith. I would say that 99.99 percent of soccer fans don't even know who he was. I didn't learn who he was until I got deep into soccer card collecting.


Fair enough. Try asking a non collecting baseball fan who Honus Wagner was and see what you get. Most of my non collecting friends have no idea. And those that do see to think he played for the Dodgers or the Yankees!

2. Highly collected set.

First you wrote "highly collected set," and then you proceeded by saying "for those of you who don't know this set." Funny. If this is a highly collected set, then you shouldn't have to explain it to us. Oh, and I have never heard of this Taddy set either.

Highly collected in UK, not USA. Pretty sure that if you said T206 to a Brit, they would have no idea what you are talking about. Just a guess.

And finally, it looks to me as if you selected Meredith because he played in the same era as Wagner, but it doesn't have to be this way.

I actually considered a bunch of cards and can make some other proposals, but was hoping to get others' perspectives first

My selection is this card below:

1957 Balas Futebol #11 Pele



This is the first card of the king. I am not sure how many examples exist, but it's extremely difficult to locate (so don't even try searching for it on eBay ) The above picture was taken from an album owned by the biggest soccer card collector in Brazil, Moacir Peres, a retired judge.

I would give up my whole entire soccer collection for this one card.

That Balas Futebol Pele is my "holy grail" Pele card, no doubt. His copy is the only one that I have ever seen or heard of. He has been on many TV shows and magazines and I have never seen anyone else.

If we are going to push this into post war, I like the choice of the Quigol Garrincha as a SSP!

When I refer to highly collectible, I was mainly referring to the UK card seen, not the North American card seen. I don't think that ANY soccer cards are highly collected in the USA. In the UK, however I understand that Taddy & Co have quite the following. Similary to the Pinnace sets. Any time you find websites dedicated to a particular set tends to say something.