Do You Like the Provenance on the Flip?

[Leon]

I won't pay much more but maybe just a little for known provenance. Knowing it came from a long ago collector means it has had fewer hands to alter it along the way. That doesn't mean all of these old collection cards are better, but there is a less likely chance they have been messed with, imo. Overall, I am kind of neutral.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I won't pay much more but maybe just a little for known provenance. Knowing it came from a long ago collector means it has had fewer hands to alter it along the way. That doesn't mean all of these old collection cards are better, but there is a less likely chance they have been messed with, imo. Overall, I am kind of neutral.

I wouldn't trust certain auction houses not to have altered certain collections they submitted. Not saying it happened, just saying my trust level is not high.

[steve B]

I general I think it's cool, but I don't own any and probably wouldn't pay much premium if any.

It's pretty common in my other hobbies to list any important collections an item has been in. Some matter more than others.

[insidethewrapper]

I thought grading was suppose to be anonymous ! Do the graders know when they grade who submitted the cards or is the label done without their knowledge ?

[drcy]

Obviously depends on the significance of the name, but I think the provenance on the label is nice and interesting. No harm, no foul.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I thought grading was suppose to be anonymous ! Do the graders know when they grade who submitted the cards or is the label done without their knowledge ?

I assume anonymous applies to the person who submitted the card for grading.

[oldjudge]

Grading services should put in the flip what they can verify. How do they know where the card came from? Do they know if a card belonged to Mantle, or Stengel, or Bray--No. They just know what they were told by the submitter. I don't like it as I think it could be abused and would certainly not pay more for a card with it.

[Arazi4442]

Been on this forum for over a year now and I guess I should have asked earlier but where did the term “flip” come from? Why not just holder, case, etc.?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Been on this forum for over a year now and I guess I should have asked earlier but where did the term “flip” come from? Why not just holder, case, etc.?

I've always called it a label.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Been on this forum for over a year now and I guess I should have asked earlier but where did the term “flip” come from? Why not just holder, case, etc.?

I'm not positive, but I believe it's a leftover from the very early days of coin authentication. The earliest certificates didn't even have a picture, and were replaced with ones that did because there was too much switching of lesser items. The certificate with photo got replaced with a holder for a similar reason.


There's a sort of coin holder that folds over sort of like a T201, but equally. With each side being a roughly 2x2 pouch. Some dealers who had certified coins would put the coin in ones side, and the folded up certificate in the other side. On non- certified coins it was usually a label with the coin information. Since you could flip it open to see the back, or read the information and usually price, it was the flip.


Those holders were PVC, and were already almost entirely out of favor by the 1970's, there are probably still some non- pvc ones made, but they're not common anymore as smaller coins can slide around and get a little wear.


Or I could be totally wrong.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Grading services should put in the flip what they can verify. How do they know where the card came from? Do they know if a card belonged to Mantle, or Stengel, or Bray--No. They just know what they were told by the submitter. I don't like it as I think it could be abused and would certainly not pay more for a card with it.

I read the write up when the owned by Mantle collection hit the market. It sounded like there was very clear provenance to prove he owned the cards.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Grading services should put in the flip what they can verify. How do they know where the card came from? Do they know if a card belonged to Mantle, or Stengel, or Bray--No. They just know what they were told by the submitter. I don't like it as I think it could be abused and would certainly not pay more for a card with it.

Having a label pedigreed is more then the submitter stating to the grading co. that so & so once owned this.
Many auction houses auction off lots from ballplayers who want to get rid of stuff or from ballplayers families
after the ballplayer passed away.
As an example, Hunts had a ton of stuff consigned from Ted Williams daughter after he passed away.
Trophy's, autographs, cards, clothing, coins...you name it.
This was 1 of the lots that I picked up & was happy w/ the provenance.

[T206Collector]

I love the "Black Swamp Find" provenance because you know the source, and the card wasn't altered. Folks who cross them over to SGC without the provenance are losing out big time on a future sale.

As I mentioned a few months ago, the Black Swamp Find made a significant appearance in the April 19 Heritage Auction. For those wondering whether the provenance of that collection still carries any cachet, consider the following:

A PSA 1.5 Jennings Red, horribly off-center, and with an actual tear in the border, sold for $1,560, because it was the only version of Jennings found in Black Swamp six years ago:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

The same auction also featured a very clean PSA 5 Jennings Red, well-centered, with no tears, and it sold for just a tic above at $1,680:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515

Collectors are plainly paying for this provenance. Keep them in the BSF holders!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wouldn't trust certain auction houses not to have altered certain collections they submitted. Not saying it happened, just saying my trust level is not high.

I also have very little trust in some of the same ones you do, though the main culprits are out of business now.
But there are circumstances where I think the likelihood of funny business is minimal...such as the Skydash collection and some others. I have had a few fairly original finds and they are cool. The Trucker Boy find stands out. All of those were very original cards. I think a few were even trimmed or hand cut back when they were collected a hundred years ago, but they were all very original as collected by a kid back when they were distributed. That provenance would have been sort of neat on the label, in retrospect. At least I would have liked it and known there wasn't any monkey business going on. This Arrelanes below boomeranged back to me and came from that collection.

[kailes2872]

The one that got away for me will always be Lionel Carter’s DeLong set. It was for sale a couple of years ago and I didn’t pull the trigger. Have regretted it ever since as they were all labeled as such in the set. The fact that it was the first set that he collected - out of the packs was so cool as he became such a collecting legend and held to high ideals for the hobby. I remember when someone asked him what he was going to do with all the money when he sold and he said something to the effect of “i’d Rather have the cards” was such a genuine statement and I wish I could have met and learned from him.

It was SGC vs PSA so that was a bummer but it looked fantastic.