T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

A Net54er emailed me. Telling me that the Herzog / UZIT card which I claim to be unique is not so. He says that 2 different Pop Reports (SGC and PSA) list this card graded.

What he does not realize is that both these Pop Reports reflect the same card. I sold this Herzog card (graded SGC 45) to David Hall (for his T206 Master set) two years ago.
David is a PSA guy, so he had this card re-graded. David lost 1/2 a point in the process as PSA graded it a "3". The Net54er appreciated my explanation.

Anyhow, this is perfect example of why one cannot always absolutely trust Pop Report data to be an accurate representation of a rare card such as this Herzog.


TED Z
.

[Silverskulls]

Hi all—

Would love assistance with some detective work:

According to the centennnial edition of Inside T206, the only cards known to be vertically miscut AND show 2 different players are from P350-only sheets. It was a result of the Pirates winning the 1909 WS and being long-printed with some sharing vertical rows with other players.

However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card.

1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this?
2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM?
3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be?

Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories.

Justin

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Silverskulls

However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card.

1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this?
2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM?
3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be?

Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories.

Justin

Hi Justin

#1....I have seen quite a number of mis-cuts like your Casey (but not Casey....seen other T206's).

#2....Multiple printings (vertically) of the same T206 subject was commonplace. Followed by a different subject (above and below) that subject.
This process was independent of the T206 back. Since the fronts were printed first.

#3...." Who might the player with the dark blue background be? "

Casey is a 350-only Series subject, and many T206's in this series have dark blue backgrounds. It's anyone's guess which T206 is below Casey.


TED Z
.

[Silverskulls]

Thank you, Ted! Very helpful. The string is a treasure trove.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Silverskulls

Hi all—

Would love assistance with some detective work:

According to the centennnial edition of Inside T206, the only cards known to be vertically miscut AND show 2 different players are from P350-only sheets. It was a result of the Pirates winning the 1909 WS and being long-printed with some sharing vertical rows with other players.

However, I recently acquired an Old Mill back Doc Casey that is vertically miscut, and features a different player at the bottom of the card.

1) Has anyone seen an OM miscut like this?
2) What could be the explanation for the vertical positioning of the different cards like this? Were players alternating vertically in OM?
3) Who might the player with the dark blue background be?

Thanks in advance for your input and expertise. Looking forward to hearing theories.

Justin

I think you can cut this down to a handful of serious candidates.

I might have missed a couple of the dark blue subjects from print group 2
but if you eliminate the ones that haven't been confirmed or are Old Mill
no prints you're left with these candidates.

Batch
Bender (with trees)
Brain
Cree
Knight (with bat)
Krause (portrait)
Livingstone
Quillen

Bender and Cree have different back patterns than Casey and there is a
Livingstone two name PD350 with Maloney at the top so if you eliminate
these three as strong candidates you're left with these five.

Batch
Brain
Knight (with bat)
Krause (portrait)
Quillen

If you have these five in hand to compare with your Casey you
might be able to narrow it down further.

Very nice card congratulations on picking it up!

[Pat R]

Like I need an excuse but the Nascar race was rained out and it's
cool and overcast here so I was bored.

The colors vary from card to card and can also vary on the same
card with different scans.

These are all Old Mill's and I didn't resize the scans because
I didn't want to distort the colors.

Casey - Batch.jpg

Casey - Brain.jpg

Casey - Knight.jpg

Casey - Krause.jpg

Casey - Quillen.jpg

My choice would be Knight or Krause slightly favoring Knight.

[tedzan]

Justin

Also, either one of these Hal Chase cards could have been the card below your Casey card.

These cards were initially printed on an early 350-only series sheet (circa Spring 1910).







TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Justin

Also, either one of these Hal Chase cards could have been the card below your Casey card.

These cards were initially printed on an early 350-only series sheet (circa Spring 1910).







TED Z
.

You're right Ted I didn't factor in the super prints or the unconfirmed
Old Mill's with Blue backgrounds and any of them could have been the
card below Casey. I wouldn't consider the Chase blue portrait a strong
candidate though since there's a two name PD350 of Chase with
Zimmerman on top.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

A Net54er emailed me. Telling me that the Herzog / UZIT card which I claim to be unique is not so. He says that 2 different Pop Reports (SGC and PSA) list this card graded.

What he does not realize is that both these Pop Reports reflect the same card. I sold this Herzog card (graded SGC 45) to David Hall (for his T206 Master set) two years ago.



TED Z
.

there was a Uzit Herzog sold in REA in 2013, so apparently there is more than one. or did you buy the one in REA, ted and then sold it to Hall 2 years ago?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...-only-example/

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

there was a Uzit Herzog sold in REA in 2013, so apparently there is more than one. or did you buy the one in REA, ted and then sold it to Hall 2 years ago?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...-only-example/[/QUOTE]


Ronnie.....I stated my timeline wrong.


.....First, I'll reprise my story which I posted in Post #499 of how I acquired this Herzog card.

" 1st Tale......
My old-time friend, Ralph, discovered the Herzog UZIT in a collection he acquired (circa 1990's) in his hometown in the Great Smoky Mountain area of North Carolina.
He knew what kind of a "nut" I am about T206's with scarce backs, so we did a nice trade. But, he did not know how scarce this Herzog card was, until I subsequently
informed him that it was the only known Herzog with a UZIT back. So we arrived at an additional cash amount (to him) to complete the deal. As of this date, this card
remains unique. "


At the 2013 National, David Hall was at my booth, and asked me "what kind of goodies do you have for me this time ? " I offered him this Herzog / UZIT card (which I
knew he didn't have in his Master set. He recommended that I consign it to the Fall REA Auction. Of course he was the winning bidder.

Compare the SGC serial number of the above card on display with the one in REA....THEY ARE THE SAME.

I hope you get it now......as of this date, this Herzog card is still the only known one with a UZIT back.


Sorry if I confused you, I got my years mixed up. Time is moving too fast for me. So it was 5 years ago (not 2 years ago) when David Hall acquired this card from me.


TED Z
.

[RedsFan1941]

thanks ted. i get it now.

david hall bought the uzit herzog in REA. not from you.

thanks for clearing that up.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

thanks ted. i get it now.

david hall bought the uzit herzog in REA. not from you.

thanks for clearing that up.

Ronnie


I offered the card to David Hall, and gave him a price which I thought was very fair, considering this T206 was one of a kind.

David was being fair to me by suggesting that I consign it to REA. In order to see what value this card would rise to. Both of
us knew from the start of this potential transaction that he would win this card.
Therefore, in effect, he bought it from me. I have sold him many T206's over the years. So, I don't understand what you are
driving at ? ?


TED Z
.

[RedsFan1941]

ok ted

[Silverskulls]

Thanks guys so much for all of your expertise. I'll continuing digging and see if I can get closer to confirming the blue card showing at the bottom, or figuring out what the card above Casey might be.

Justin

Originally Posted by Pat R

You're right Ted I didn't factor in the super prints or the unconfirmed
Old Mill's with Blue backgrounds and any of them could have been the
card below Casey. I wouldn't consider the Chase blue portrait a strong
candidate though since there's a two name PD350 of Chase with
Zimmerman on top.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


. .


I'll continue on this topic with my most recent purchase. A little over 5 years ago I acquired 291 tobacco cards. This collection comprised of 274 - T206's and 17 - T205's.

The T206 group of cards had a good mixture of stars in Vg-Ex to Ex condition. And, an eclectic group of rare backs. Especially, these two "goodies"...…



.


.





The T205 group of 17 cards comprised of a couple of Minor Leaguer's, SP cards (Rowan, Vaughn, etc.), some commons and one star......





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *






My title for this post is taken from a very good 1973 Baseball movie featuring Michael Moriarity and Robert De Niro. Check it out if you have not seen it.


Back in the 1970's and 1980's, DRUM cards (of both T206's and T205's) were considered the scarcest tobacco cards. Of course, this isn't true anymore.
The T206 BROAD LEAF 460 and the T205 HINDU (respectively) are tougher cards to find than DRUM.

New DRUM cards continue to come out of the wood-work. The most significant find in recent years was Ron Oser's which included 51 - DRUM cards.

DRUM cards were printed on subjects in the 350-only series and on subjects in the 350/460 series. The DRUM cards were issued circa Summer/Fall of 1910.

FYI the confirmed T206 DRUM cards (as of today) are listed here......



.




DRUM backs confirmed....total = 159 subjects


350-only subjects.................... 123 subjects

Abstein
Adkins
Arellanes
Armbruster
Atz
Barbeau
Jack Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Becker
Bescher (portrait)
Bliss
Burke
Bush
Carr
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (yellow portrait)
Charles
Clark

Cobb (red portrait)
Congalton
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Egan
Engle
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher
Freeman
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Hallman

Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Danny Hoffman (St Louis)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (Portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Jackson
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh

LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Maddox
Maloney
Marshall
McAleese
McBride
McGann
Matt McIntyre (Detroit)
Milan
Milligan
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty

Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (batting)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Purtell
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm

Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Starr
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
Jess Tannehill (Wash.)
Taylor
Thielman
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub

Warhop
Willett (bat)
Zimmerman


350/460 subjects..........................36 cards

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Murphy (bat)

Nichols (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


OK guys,
Your turn to show-n-tell us of your T206 DRUM cards.



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Got this one from Michael Sarno 5 years ago....


scan0025.jpg

scan0026.jpg

[RCMcKenzie]

Drums are hard to find. Here is a LaPorte

[tedzan]

Hey Sean

Thanks for posting your Street / DRUM.

And, did you know that Street is one of the few T206 dudes which has a 350-only card with a DRUM back, and a 350/460 card with a DRUM back ?


TED Z
.

[JohnP0621]

With a twin Uzitimage.jpg

[JohnP0621]

Drum Back

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Drums are hard to find. Here is a LaPorte

Hi Rob

Thanks for posting your LaPorte / DRUM card. I think there is only one other one known. This DRUM is indeed very rare.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Although, this thread pertains to T206 cards, there are some aspects of the printing of the T205 set that are similar to that of the T206 set. For example....the A-B-C-DRUM pattern
found in both of these tobacco sets. Therefore, feel free to also post T205 DRUM cards. Of the 208 different subjects in the T205 set, only 32 of them were printed with DRUM backs.
Refer to this thread for more info regarding the A-B-C-DRUM connection: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...s+HINDU&page=2

Listed here are the 32 subjects which were theoretically printed with DRUM backs. I say "theoretically", since 5 subjects have not yet been confirmed. I expect that these 5 subjects
will eventually be discovered with DRUM backs.


.

Scan courtesy of Mark Macrae.



T205 DRUM checklist......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker **
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog **
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins **
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert **

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat **
Harry Wolter


** denotes not yet confirmed with DRUM (but have been confirmed with AB - BL - CY)


So if you have them, why not post them......T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Sean

Thanks for posting your Street / DRUM.

And, did you know that Street is one of the few T206 dudes which has a 350-only card with a DRUM back, and a 350/460 card with a DRUM back ?


TED Z
.

Hi Ted, I did not know that. I'm glad that I'm not doing a Street portrait back run.

[tedzan]

John P.

Nice DRUM and UZIT Wiltse cards.

Thanks for showing them.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Here' my first T206 DRUM....acquired in the early 1980's. It maybe the only DRUM card of Moeller.

.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Here's a T205 Drum from my Yankees collection.


.



T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not show them.



TED Z
.

[frankbmd]

FYI - Portions of “Bang The Drum Slowly” were filmed on location in Clearwater, Florida. Ted, I’m sorry that I do not have anything to bang for your thread.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

FYI - Portions of “Bang The Drum Slowly” were filmed on location in Clearwater, Florida. Ted, I’m sorry that I do not have anything to bang for your thread.

Hey Frank
Great to hear from you. Thanks for chiming in regarding this movie. It's a somewhat unheralded BB movie. Now, without revealing the story, Michael Moriarty is the ace Pitcher,
Robert De Niro is his battery mate, and Vincent Gardenia is their team's Manager. Really good performances by all three actors. Di Niro was not a well-known actor prior to this movie....and, Vincent Gardenia was nominated for the Best Supporting actor Award in his role in it.

Take care, my friend.


TED Z
.

[MVSNYC]

Ted- Epic thread, great work.

It's kinda eye-popping how many deals I've done with people here...several trades illustrated in this thread alone- Drums, Bl 460's, Uzits, Lenox's, etc...if I would've kept all the cards I've owned...But alas, I really do enjoy trading. Keeps things fun.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Ted- Epic thread, great work.

It's kinda eye-popping how many deals I've done with people here...several trades illustrated in this thread alone- Drums, Bl 460's, Uzits, Lenox's, etc...if I would've kept all the cards I've owned...But alas, I really do enjoy trading. Keeps things fun.

Thanks Mike


And yes, you and I have done some nice T206 deals, dating back to the ole Fort Washington Philly Show days.

I will be setting up again at the Philly Show in Oaks, PA in December. Hope to see you there.


TED Z
.

[Yoda]

One of the many great cards in my hot little hands at one time but, sadly, no longer is a Drum backed T206 Griffith batting PSA 7, one of the prides of my collection at the time and consigned to Kevin Struss when he was at Mastro.

Ted, I guess it had to be a 350/460 series according to your chart.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Sean

The timeline of the print runs of the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series tells us the story.

Circa..Summer > Fall 1909, the 1st press run of the SLer's (34 subjects) were printed with HINDU backs.

Circa..late 1909 > early 1910, the OLD MILL press runs started and the following 14 subjects were added
to the SL series (total = 48 subjects)......

Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King (Danville)
Lentz (Little Rock)
Orth (Lynchburg)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery)
Seitz (Norfolk)
Westlake (Danville)

Texas League

Bastian (San Antonio)
Molly Miller (Dallas)
Carlos Smith (Shreveport)
Stark (San Antonio)
Thebo (Waco)
Foley White (Houston)

Circa..Spring 1910, the PIEDMONT 350 cards were printed on all 48 - SL. Surveys indicate that these 14
additional SL subjects were were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs in greater quantity than those of the
original 34 subjects were.


TED Z
.

Ted,
I found an ad that I think might be important on the timeline of the
printing of southern league series with Old Mill backs.

The ad was in an August 14 1909 Tampa paper. With the cards
already packaged and in transit in mid August I would think the
printing would have had to have started in late spring or early summer.

img650.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Yoda

One of the many great cards in my hot little hands at one time but, sadly, no longer is a Drum backed T206 Griffith batting PSA 7, one of the prides of my collection at the time and consigned to Kevin Struss when he was at Mastro.

Ted, I guess it had to be a 350/460 series according to your chart.

Hi John

Your guess is yes......Griffith (with bat) is a 350/460 series subject.

Take care, my friend.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Listed in Post #516 here are all the T206's which have been confirmed (to date) with the DRUM back.

The following lists all the possible T206's which have yet to be found with the DRUM back.




350-only series (67 subjects not yet confirmed)

Abbott
Anderson
Arndt
Beck
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burns
Butler
Campbell
Carrigan
Chappelle
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clancy
Clymer

Collins (A's)
Cravath
Cree
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Ferguson
Flanagan
Fromme
Ganzel
Bill Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hannifan
Hoffman (Providence)
Howard (Chicago)
Hulswitt

Jones (Detroit)
Kruger
Lord
Malarkey
Marquard (portrait)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McGinley
McGinnity
McGlynn
Merritt
Miller (Pittsburg)
Oberlin
O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Phelan
Poland
Quillen

Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Stanage
Jack White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young


350/460 series (1 subject not yet confirmed)

Mullin (batting)



If any of you have any of these guys listed above with a DRUM back, PLEASE show-n-tell us about it here.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Switching back to T205 DRUM's.....after completing my 209-card T205 set [included the Hoblitzell (no stats)],
I continued my T205 "adventure" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets. Here is an example of my favorite...….


.




I've been searching for the Huggins / DRUM for quite a number of years. Any help here is greatly appreciated.


T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not post them here.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *





As we all know, the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. This is because the POLAR BEAR timeline coincided with the trades of
these two guys from their former New York teams. Both of them started the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned
to the Eastern (International) League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to his hometown team, Toronto.

American Lithographic printed 250 different subjects with the POLAR BEAR backs....which include subjects in the 350-only series, the 350/460 series and the 460-only series.

As rare as these 2 cards seem to be, you may be surprised to find out how many of them are in circulation. I have a fair estimate of how many Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis
variations are currently in circulation. But, before I give you my number, let us hear your guesstimate ?







Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912)



TED Z
.

[insidethewrapper]

Who knows how many are still out there ? I'll guessimate around 850 each.

[t206kid]

About 400 or so each

[rommesc]

Guessing there are roughly 350 copies of each of each card. By the way, nice Demmitt!

[tedzan]

Interesting numbers, guys. Continue posting your guesstimates.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

About 500 each

[judsonhamlin]

I'll guess about 200-250 on O'Hara and 250-300 on Demmitt

[tedzan]

Thanks guys for all you guesstimates. Let's see if we can a few more inputs ?

Incidentally, if you are searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card, you should consider acquiring the T213-2 Demmitt.
The image is the same, and so what if the name of the team differs, and it's caption is colored blue

There is usually one (or 2) for sale on ebay for about $100. Think of the $$$$ you save, allowing you to buy many more T206's.


.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The average number of the guesstimate inputs = 470 cards of each of these St Louis variations. One input, however, is somewhat
high and skews this average number more than I would guess.

Anyway, my number is a little more than just a guess, as have been tracking the St Louis versions of Demmitt and O'Hara for years.
Therefore, my "sort of educated" guess is = 350 +/- 50 cards each.

So, we are all basically in the same "ballpark"

Thanks for your responses.


TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

Thank you for your wealth of knowledge Ted.

[insidethewrapper]

Many collectors etc. know nothing about the grading services, and about 300 of each of these cards have already been graded. Wonder how many have not been graded ? Most cards in general have not been graded.

[Millerd33]

How many of the average polar bear common are out there?
Curious how this estimate lines up against the average polar bear population.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Millerd33

How many of the average polar bear common are out there?
Curious how this estimate lines up against the average polar bear population.

Good question.

There are 250 different subjects in the T206 set printed with POLAR BEAR (PB) backs.

American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press runs of the PB cards in the 350-only series (circa Summer 1910). There are 138 subjects in the 350-only series confirmed with PB backs.
The population range of these PB cards is 50 - 100.

Subsequently, ALC printed the PB backs on cards in the 350/460 series. In this series, 64 subjects are confirmed with PB backs. The population range of these PB cards is 100 - 300.

And finally, the PB backs were printed on all 46 subjects in the 460-only series. The population range of these PB cards is 25 - 75.

Given the above data, my theory is that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis cards) were printed during the 350/460 press run.


TED Z
.

[Millerd33]

Do you think the Demmitt/O'hara are notably any more rare than the average PB common? How would you rate it's survivor population vs the average PB common.

Much lower
Slightly lower
Almost equal
Equal