Counterfeits coming from Italy

[samosa4u]

I've been trying to figure out how to write this thread and I have decided the best thing to do is to just keep it simple. I will not be discussing my own personal experience and turning this post into a nine paragraph essay. Instead, I will just point out what's been happening and how all of you collectors can protect yourselves. I have decided to use the Q&A format for this post in order to make it easy for everyone to follow.

Q: What's the problem here?

A: I have noticed a lot of counterfeits coming out of Italy. The big cards that I have caught so far are the following:

- 1968 Sicker-Verlag Johan Cruyff RC
- 1974 Ageducatifs Michel Platini RC
- 1986 Panini Supersport Mike Tyson RC

Again, these are the ones that I have caught, but there are definitely more out there.

Q: How do I protect myself? What are some of the things that I should look out for?

A: At first I was thinking of posting scans of the fakes and pointing out what to look for, but then I realized that doing this would be a waste of my time. Counterfeiters can see this post and then make adjustments to their work. So I will just post one piece of advice that will help you the most - get a loupe! This is crazy, but there are some collectors here who still don't own one! A good one can cost around $10 and it will save you thousands of dollars down the line. Now these counterfeits look really good with the naked eye and have the same paper stock, size, and colors - this is why the loupe is the easiest way to catch them. The best thing to do is to start with the reverse side. Get your loupe and examine the lettering carefully. The edges of the lettering should be smooth. If you see pixels, then this means it was done on somebody's printer (it's fake).

Q: If I buy graded ones, then I'm safe, right?

A: Nope! I have strong reason to believe that some of these fakes have gotten past graders. If you declare these cards for $75 each, then I don't think graders are going to spend too much time on them. Furthermore, graders don't use the loupe on every card (unless they are expensive). If you do pick up any graded examples, then again please check them under your loupe and look for the pixels.

If you have any questions, then please post them here or just PM me. Otherwise, just follow the above advice and you should be fine.

[Arazi4442]

Thanks for the heads up. Pretty sure I got beat on a couple Panini Tyson's about 2-3 months ago. Live and learn, I guess. I'm usually pretty skeptical of raw cards on eBay but seller had a high number of feedback at 100%.
Kind of sad you have to keep your guard up ALL the time.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Pretty sure I got beat on a couple Panini Tyson's about 2-3 months ago.

I think Paypal gives you 180 days to file a claim.

[Exhibitman]

There are also fake Miras coming from eBay Italy. Be very, very wary of sellers offering large blocks of clean cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can you show an example of a Mira you think was fake? When I've looked on ebay Italy for Miras I see a bunch of $4 cards and a bunch recovered from albums.

[Copa7]

I was going to post about this as well. But I think it was so well put, not much to add.

I will emphasise that graded cards are NOT safe as they have less knowledge than collectors.

[thelimey]

I got taken with a Cruyff & Platini a few months ago. I was able to get a refund through ebay by showing the pixelisation of the text on the back & arguing it was a modern method, comparing it to some authentic copies. Unfortunately some of these have made it through PSA (I have recently picked up a PSA Platini only to find out it is one of these copies), which will make it trickier for people to point out / prove the fakes. These seem to be coming from several selling ID's that are either working together or the same person. When I raised my suspicions with my seller all the listings from other sellers got immediately pulled (something I also pointed out to ebay).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by thelimey

I got taken with a Cruyff & Platini a few months ago. I was able to get a refund through ebay by showing the pixelisation of the text on the back & arguing it was a modern method, comparing it to some authentic copies. Unfortunately some of these have made it through PSA (I have recently picked up a PSA Platini only to find out it is one of these copies), which will make it trickier for people to point out / prove the fakes. These seem to be coming from several selling ID's that are either working together or the same person. When I raised my suspicions with my seller all the listings from other sellers got immediately pulled (something I also pointed out to ebay).

Could you please let us know the IDs?

[samosa4u]

solare53

topazziostickers

I believe they are the same person.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I think Paypal gives you 180 days to file a claim.

Thanks! I’ll get in contact with PayPal ASAP.

[thelimey]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

solare53

topazziostickers

I believe they are the same person.

And corason78

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by thelimey

And corason78

+1

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Can you show an example of a Mira you think was fake? When I've looked on ebay Italy for Miras I see a bunch of $4 cards and a bunch recovered from albums.

A listing by eBay seller "comeravamo17" for a 1968 Mira album and stickers (item #302784423461) described as "Album figurine tuttosport imira completo con figurine da attaccare no panini lampo", which translates as a Mira Tuttosport album complete with stickers to attach not Panini or Lampo. The title added the word "anastatico".

I was underbidder on the lot. The buyer left negative feedback stating "Everything was reprints. Seller refused refund. Don't fall for the anastatic BS". The seller's response to the negative was "I specified several times that it was anastatic at the end but it did not return it"

Anastatic printing is a printing method but this ass-clown was using that word as code for reprint. I narrowly dodged getting cheated only because I was too cheap to top an E278 (about $300) bid.

What is scary isn't that the seller is a scumbag, it is that the cards and album themselves looked damned good on eBay. Scary good.

[Arazi4442]

Corason78 has now changed user ID to topazziostickers and still has several items for sale.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Corason78 has now changed user ID to topazziostickers and still has several items for sale.

Yeah, it looks like it's the same person. I negged his other account (twice) and now he has to sell all his Platini and Cruyff fakes through his topazziostickers account.

[Collect Equity]

Great thread!!! As I mentioned in another thread, I was taken by a seller in Mexico who sent me a bunch of fake Mexican soccer cards. It really took the wind out of my collecting sales for a few months. It’s so important to be educated and wary.

A few questions on the topics in this thread:

1) Can someone show some examples of the different types of printing to look for with a loupe? Specifically, if I am buying cards from the 60s or 70s what kind of patterns should I see or not see compared to home made reprints? (Note: I don’t care about the specific card, just general examples). It’s hard for me to know what type of printing was and was not around in the 1970s, to be able to compare against.

2) Toppaziostickers is offering a Pele Sicker Verlag with back damage due to being taken from an album. I have always trusted back-damaged cards that appear album removed as a sign of authenticity. Can anyone confirm if they have seen counterfeiters fake back damage?

3) if you do buy a fake PSA card, isn’t there buyer protection of some kind?

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

1) Can someone show some examples of the different types of printing to look for with a loupe? Specifically, if I am buying cards from the 60s or 70s what kind of patterns should I see or not see compared to home made reprints? (Note: I don’t care about the specific card, just general examples). It’s hard for me to know what type of printing was and was not around in the 1970s, to be able to compare against.

2) Toppaziostickers is offering a Pele Sicker Verlag with back damage due to being taken from an album. I have always trusted back-damaged cards that appear album removed as a sign of authenticity. Can anyone confirm if they have seen counterfeiters fake back damage?

3) if you do buy a fake PSA card, isn’t there buyer protection of some kind?

1. This is something you have to do yourself. I want you to get your loupe and examine some of the cards in your collection. Look at the printing dots, corners, edges, and the lettering on the backs. This is the only way you can become an expert. Then when somebody sends you a counterfeit, it will take you a few seconds to realize that something is wrong. It is something that will just come to you automatically.

2. Let me ask you a question: have you ever seen a counterfeiter on eBay, who has 75 items up for sale, and all 75 of them are fake? I haven't. Sure, you might find a few of them that are real, especially the low-priced ones. His Sicker-Verlag Pele might be real. However, that's irrelevant here.

3. You have to ask PSA about this.

[thelimey]

Here is a pretty flagrant auction of counterfeits; all 3 stickers, multiple copies & zero feedback https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rookie-Mi...8AAOSw3YpbnUph

[samosa4u]

You will notice that the item location is also in Argentiera, Italy. It's probably the same guy.

This guy is going to make thousands and thousands of dollars selling these fakes. Here is why:

- It is so easy for him to make multiple accounts.

- PSA can't tell a real one from a fake. A lot of them are going to get encapsulated and his buyers will be happy.

- The authorities in Italy probably don't give a sh*t.

- He probably has a closet full of them.