"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

And you've made my point.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

The Wagner, as is any sports card, is many things to many people. I'm not sure it's helpful to portray any card as solely one thing first and all else second.

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

I don't have an answer, but this makes me wonder why the sports card hobby
HAS to follow the lead of other hobbies when it comes to restoration. I'm sure there are differences, perhaps subtle or not, in how each of the other hobbies you mentioned handles restored works (not to mention differing reasons for the restorations). But there's nothing that should dictate that sports cards follows suit and plays by another hobby's book.
I think (stress: think) that it's probably a sign of the health of the hobby that there are enough people to be on various sides of the restoration debate. And I hope that there is enough respect for those who are against restoration, of which there are a large number, that all restoration work is divulged. If that can happen, I think both sides can be happy.

[ejharrington]

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

Ditto. I'd much rather have the restored version over the original,

[Jdoggs]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Ditto. I'd much rather have the restored version over the original,

Agree the restored version is beautiful. And it's fully disclosed that's it's restored so nothing to hide.

[mrvster]

This card is a "FRANKEN WAGNER"

restoration should be left to art .....NOT CARDS!

IN MY OPINION, THEY KILLED A BEAUTY !

once something is altered, it changes the integrity of the original card....

trimming, paper loss I can live with.....card is still original in these cases...

this card has been basically "created" and is not original.....

someone ruined a masterpiece and spent 14 k to do it!

this is insanity.....the card is WAY overpriced right now!


card in current state should be a 100 k card or under......


If I had this, I would spend multi k to see if I could get it "unrestored" although I think in this case might be impossible....


heck, while they were at it, they should have made the background pink and changed han's hairstyle

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

+1

[Jobu]

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

[Fred]

That 1a/1b job is not a restoration, that's a huge reconstruction.

I suppose if the card is doctored and then sold it would only be right if the before/after pictures are disclosed during the auction or prior to the private sale.

How would you feel if the front was used but the back was completely changed with a period back?

I'm not against restoration/reconstruction as long as there is full disclosure. Perhaps this is a turning point in the hobby where this is going to be more widely accepted and common place.

Does anybody know how many hours were spent on the Wagner ($14K) reconstruction job?

[Republicaninmass]

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

They had it at the National.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

I saw it in their case at the Chantilly show in October. I couldn’t see the back. The front looked like an attractive, mid-grade example from a distance. From close up, to me anyway, it looked like someone had hand drawn on some of the lines. The other repairs were not really detectable to my untrained/unassisted eyes, but the lines were.

[calvindog]

The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.

I think that depends upon your tolerance for beater supremes, Jeff. Along with my PSA 7 R316 Ott rookie, I have one in SGC poor that I bought on a whim some years ago because it was the best centered one I had ever seen. However, it also has a tack hole through Mel's hat brim, and appears to have had the lower right corner chewed off by the original owner's dog! Some days I can tolerate it and some I have difficulty with even keeping it. The former are when I think of what a truly great player Mel Ott was (155 OPS+, tied with Hank Aaron, and just one point behind Mays; 180% plus of league average runs created, placing him in the same category with each of the two above, along with Mize and Foxx; average full season over his career of approximately .304 BA, 30 HR, 100 RBI, 100 walks, and .414 OBP, 12-time all-star, and 6-time HR leader). I am personally not one who suffers beaters easily unless they are ultra rare and significant, and the '29 R316 Ott, while relatively scarce (the '29 Leader Novelty is out and out rare!), is not rare.

Just had to get that out of my system, I guess. To those of you reading this thread, my apologies for the literary outburst!

Larry

[insidethewrapper]

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

[oldjudge]

What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

[bounce]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

pics added to the first post for those who aren't able to click through the links provided by Jobu

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

On the plus side, no centering or corner issues! From the lot description:

"Near-perfect centering between the added upper and side borders, even corner wear reflecting VG/EX quality, and a virtually completely enhanced Sweet Caporal 150 Subject, Factory 25 verso...."

[drcy]

I agree that there is a difference between restoration and such a wholesale change with foreign parts that there is a question if the card can be considered original/authentic. As a collector of original items, I wouldn't be interested in the latter. "Some of it is original" isn't enough for me. If someone else doesn't have a problem with owning it, I'm not going to argue with them as it is in part a matter of personal sentiments, taste and philosophy. People collect game used jerseys with added on missing nameplates and numbers.

One instance where major wholesale change with foreign material is justifiable to me is when the central image is majorly damaged. I still wouldn't want to own it, but I understand and appreciate why that would be done.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Jobu

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

Jason19th - I thought about this and was wondering if someone might suggest it's a sign of the hobby maturing. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. I think it's a very complicated issue, especially if the concept of these being "commodities" is going to continue.

I do worry that while these sorts of issues have certainly brought more interest and money into the hobby, it's not necessarily improved education and knowledge. For permanent sustainability, I think it all needs to go hand in hand.

[mrvster]

going to start a thread just like this....


I agree 100% .... with poster

[Fred]

That's a pretty cool web page with the different Wagner's shown in pre-restoration and pre-slabbed states.

Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

[oldjudge]

I think all of us would prefer an unrestored to a restored copy of a card. However, sometimes because of price or rarity this is impossible. In those cases I am fine with restored copies. The Wagner is nice looking and will sell for a fraction of what a similar appearing unrestored copy would sell for, bringing it into the availability of more collectors. This is not the only restored copy of a rare card in s current auction. LOTG has a restored Ward Four Base Hits in it's auction ending Saturday. In this case it is literally the only way for a collector to get the card. There are two known copies and the unrestored copy, which sold for between $150,000 and $200,000 in a private sale, is buried in an advanced collection and not coming out. In both cases and others, the restored copy should sell for 10-20% of the unrestored copy, depending on the appearance and the amount of restoration.

[Jobu]

I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.

Originally Posted by Fred

Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

[RedsFan1941]

good luck with the four base hits

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

good luck with the four base hits

LOL. Yeah that was sorta the same thought I had.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.

Re-cutter. The card had already been cut off the strip when he bought it.

[barrysloate]

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

[mq711]

PSA refused to grade a 71T because they said color was added, why not a restored "grade."

[LincolnVT]

Why wasn't the original card cut into pieces so that several 200k+ restored cards could be made?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by bounce

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

...

Nope.

Larry

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Jobu

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

[orly57]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

I agree. Am I crazy to think that the card would have actually brought in more money had it not been reconstructed? I think they threw away 14k and lost more $ in the process. For the record, I have no problem with this as long as it is disclosed, but I think collectors will pay more for a rough example.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Jobu

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

I would buy the original, not the restored. No way.

[ClementeFanOh]

Spot on, Anson. I am into collecting comics just about as deeply as cards, and the term "restored" is frequently used to describe books that are in some way (color, staples, "married" pages, etc) artificially "improved" to enhance appearance. As is proper, these comics do not command the price values of real books of the same issue and title. For those of you who convince yourself that "restoration" is okay because it is done with cars or books, consider that those objects can be made up of hundreds of separate pieces. Cards are just front and a back. Seems pretty cheap to "restore" something like the Wagner compared to restoring a 1940s Rolls Royce, doesn't it? Those of you who can convince yourselves it is okay won't be dissuaded. I, for one, wouldn't own a "restored" card- it is cheating ( it is just that other folks KNOW you are cheating). Sermon over.