OT but front page worthy Jordan card ebay

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

the 34' goudey lajoie was created by goudey in response to an outpouring of letters from people trying to complete the set but there was no card #106. So those who wrote letters got cards.

How's that anything like a modern card company just deciding to only make a certain # of a background color...to "create" a rare card?

Goudey Lajoie, George C. Miller Andrews, Butter Cream Ruth, U.S. Caramel Lindstrom, etc. etc. were all manufactured rarity ploys by 1930s manufacturers TO SELL MORE PRODUCT.


Certified autographs, game-used inserts, high numbers, SPs, rip cards, variations, color waves, refractors, parallels are all manufactured rarity ploys by modern manufacturers TO SELL MORE PRODUCT.


There is nothing new under the sun.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Goudey Lajoie, George C. Miller Andrews, Butter Cream Ruth, U.S. Caramel Lindstrom, etc. etc. were all manufactured rarity ploys by 1930s manufacturers TO SELL MORE PRODUCT.


Certified autographs, game-used inserts, high numbers, SPs, rip cards, variations, color waves, refractors, parallels are all manufactured rarity ploys by modern manufacturers TO SELL MORE PRODUCT.


There is nothing new under the sun.

I suppose its similar but different to me. Short printing a card to avoid too many contest winners plus the fact that in some cases the winners cards were not returned = rarity.

Upper deck making a few cards with a different color background to create a rarity is not the same.

Ill agree to disagree with you.

[rhettyeakley]

I collect some modern cards with my son and we enjoy opening packs and it is a lot of fun. The modern hobby actually spends a lot of time and effort to include players from yesteryear in their products, which I actually like and think is overall pretty good for the health of the hobby. Because of this my son has become a big Ken Griffey Jr fan just as I was when I was younger.

The modern hobby is a fun one but it is VERY expensive. Most boxes worth bothering with run $80-120 to start and most of the time the cards you get would not recoup even a small portion of that money. You end up with about 80-100 base cards, 10-15 insert cards that rarely sell for more than a few bucks, and maybe a minor hit or two (jersey cards & sticker-on-card autos are NOT popular as the thing now is limited parallel numbered versions of autographed cards... but only of the handful of super collected players). For example I purchased my son a box of 2018 Gypsy Queen at the National (probably my favorite of the modern retro-style sets up until they stopped doing the mini parallels) and we opened the packs when I got home and he was super excited when he got a pretty limited Ozzie Albies RC #ed to 50 B&W image w/Certified Autograph. Pretty exciting... until we went on ebay to see what they were "going for" and saw that even with a pretty decent hit in our box we barely would pay for the box with that card. Again, we had fun and that is why we did it but it illustrates the point to a degree.

I think this last point is my admittedly-personal problem with the modern hobby... way too much semi-worthless stuff and only a few "real" hits to be had in any given product, IF there even are hits in an entire product line. It feels more like going to the local gas station and buying some scratch-off lottery tickets.

An example of this was the last H&S Auction Lot #1198...
https://hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/...l?itemid=34308
I can only imagine the amount of money spent to get that many "hits" and the VAST majority of items in modern products, even the hits are problematic to sell or try to get anything out of.

I am not dogging on modern, I enjoy opening packs with my son and will continue to do so as we are both baseball fans BUT it is easy to see why some get sick of getting burned on so many modern products chasing the impossible cards that actually sell for the crazy prices we see at auction.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I suppose its similar but different to me. Short printing a card to avoid too many contest winners plus the fact that in some cases the winners cards were not returned = rarity.

Upper deck making a few cards with a different color background to create a rarity is not the same.

Ill agree to disagree with you.

Well one difference is the modern manufacturer is creating scarcity to create a speculative secondary market in its product and to create the illusion it's a financially valuable commodity. Neither of which were the goals of the President of the Goudey card company. The old scarcities are rare today because they are scarce, not because someone set out to make them desirable on Ebay.

[A2000]

Let’s not forget Topps purposely creating a short print on 1952 topps high numbers by dumping pallets of the stuff into the ocean

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Well one difference is the modern manufacturer is creating scarcity to create a speculative secondary market in its product and to create the illusion it's a financially valuable commodity. Neither of which were the goals of the President of the Goudey card company. The old scarcities are rare today because they are scarce, not because someone set out to make them desirable on Ebay.

This is well stated. Enos Goudey was attempting to get kids to spend extra pennies to try to complete a set. Topps’ primary objective is to get middle aged dudes to drop three and four figures on case breaks trying to win the lottery. There’s a huge difference.

[MattyC]

Or, through the design of many variations, they are creating a layered and engaging collecting endeavor— for those who like to chase and assemble sets (i.e., Topps Heritage).

To try and say collecting ad backs or color runs of PreWar is somehow intrinsically superior to doing the same with modern is flat out wrong.

[PowderedH2O]

I collect mostly vintage, but I grab new stuff here and there. The NBA doesn't have 150 years of history. It started in the 1940's, and there were only three major sets issued before 1969. What early rare cards is the basketball collector supposed to chase once they have completed the Big 3? For a person with deep pockets, where do you go? The 1970's? Easy to complete. 1980's? If you jumped in early, those aren't that difficult either. These rare inserts are the only truly tough cards out there. The investor here is thinking that extreme rarity combined with a sure thing like Michael Jordan is this generation's T206 Wagner... except that 320,000,000 Americans know who Michael Jordan is, and probably less than 5 million know who Honus Wagner is.

Not my cup of tea, but if someone has the cash and they want to sink that kind of money into the hobby, by all means do it!

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Or, through the design of many variations, they are creating a layered and engaging collecting endeavor— for those who like to chase and assemble sets (i.e., Topps Heritage).

To try and say collecting ad backs or color runs of PreWar is somehow intrinsically superior to doing the same with modern is flat out wrong.

A layered and engaging collecting endeavor? That’s rich.

Yes, modern brands are manufacturing rarity for the sole purpose of creating “a layered and engaging experience” for the collecting purists like yourself who simply value the cards with no regard to value.

Do you honestly believe that?

I’m not even saying it’s better or worse than vintage back runs it color runs. Those are your words. But let’s call it what it is. The marketing objectives of 1930s Goudey and 2019 Topps are very different.

[Snapolit1]

People can collect whatever they want. Years ago I had friends loading up on limited edition Thomas Kincaid paintings. Made them happy. Today they ain't worth diddly squat. Does that make them stupid? No. If they spent their kids college money on them believing it was a good investment, does that make them smart. Uh, no.

I enjoy buying modern cards. Two or three times a year I buy a big ass box of a new release and enjoying going through them. Usually at the card store there are bunch of "kids" (i.e., guys in their 30s) ripping open boxes and flinging cards into a garbage can trying to find one or two special added relic or autograph cards. Don't strike me as "collectors" as the term is used on this board.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

A layered and engaging collecting endeavor? That’s rich.

Yes, modern brands are manufacturing rarity for the sole purpose of creating “a layered and engaging experience” for the collecting purists like yourself who simply value the cards with no regard to value.

Do you honestly believe that?

I’m not even saying it’s better or worse than vintage back runs it color runs. Those are your words. But let’s call it what it is. The marketing objectives of 1930s Goudey and 2019 Topps are very different.

When I was a kid collecting Topps I never had trouble "engaging" when there were only base cards, not multiple levels of inserts, parallels, what have you.

[mark evans]

Another difference, although this is pure speculation, is that the new rarities are more likely to depreciate in value than the old rarities. There are a zillion different Jordan cards. How meaningful will these green cards be 50 years from now? Not so many Lajoies, although the old cards could take a hit as well once the baby boomers move on.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

A layered and engaging collecting endeavor? That’s rich.

Yes, modern brands are manufacturing rarity for the sole purpose of creating “a layered and engaging experience” for the collecting purists like yourself who simply value the cards with no regard to value.

Do you honestly believe that?

I’m not even saying it’s better or worse than vintage back runs it color runs. Those are your words. But let’s call it what it is. The marketing objectives of 1930s Goudey and 2019 Topps are very different.

What’s “rich” is your post claiming a “huge difference,” when all you did was highlight a similarity: companies trying to make cards that will sell. And your beloved Mr. Goudey targeting kids’ 1930’s pennies is somehow supposed to put the cards you like on some pedestal? Your alleged target audience for the two is different, yet the underlying motivation is by your own words a similarity. That said, the children I know who enjoy opening packs would seem to explode your exclusive middle aged men theory. There can be more than one target audience. You even admitted you opened Heritage in just the manner I am referencing.

Your posts above are both presumptuous and reductive; Topps certainly knows that while indeed there are buyers out there looking for an eBay flip, there are also collectors of all ages who do enjoy hunting for myriad variations— knowing full well that the Heritage Throwback semi-star they pulled yet desired for their set won’t be worth a dime down the line. Point being that it is highly presumptuous to claim you know why everyone is buying (for a “Lotto” ticket). The set design in that respect is layered and designed to engage the collector beyond the base cards; much in the same way some video games are layered to engage the player in multiple tasks, for example.

What is the endgame here? You want everyone to collect Gehringer or mid grade t206’s or whatever you collect? Sorry, but people are going to have different tastes no matter how hard some try and slight what they like. And — gasp— some of us will take home an e90-1 Shoeless and a Bryce Harper or Kershaw.

Last time I checked, all the cards in the hobby weren’t pitted against each other in some absurd battle; the collectors of them shouldn’t be either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

This is well stated. Enos Goudey was attempting to get kids to spend extra pennies to try to complete a set. Topps’ primary objective is to get middle aged dudes to drop three and four figures on case breaks trying to win the lottery. There’s a huge difference.

Yes but on the other hand those dudes surely have their eyes wide open?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

This is well stated. Enos Goudey was attempting to get kids to spend extra pennies to try to complete a set. Topps’ primary objective is to get middle aged dudes to drop three and four figures on case breaks trying to win the lottery. There’s a huge difference.

You're right. MUCH better to SCAM kids out of their money seeking a card that fraudulently didn't exist than to sell to adults who know full well their odds.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Tabe

You're right. MUCH better to SCAM kids out of their money seeking a card that fraudulently didn't exist than to sell to adults who know full well their odds.

Out of 50 or so years worth of pre war cards, are we really going to focus on, and cherry-pick one shitty scam by one gum company and use it as justification for what’s going on with modern cards? Goudey was in the business of selling GUM. Kids bought packs of GUM and got the gum. They were not defrauded. Again, it was a shitty thing to do, but the kids got what they paid for. This comparison really needs to die.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by orly57

Out of 50 or so years worth of pre war cards, are we really going to focus on, and cherry-pick one shitty scam by one gum company and use it as justification for what’s going on with modern cards? This comparison really needs to die.

Or 1933 George C. Miller Andrews or 1933 Butter Cream Ruth or 1923 Maple Crispette Stengel or 1932 U.S. Caramel Lindstrom or 1948 Leaf Boxing Graziano, etc. etc.

The point is that the "manufactured scarcity" hand-wringing bandied about by so many vintage only collectors is a SIGNIFICANT part of hobby history, regardless of the contents of the final product.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by orly57

Out of 50 or so years worth of pre war cards, are we really going to focus on, and cherry-pick one shitty scam by one gum company and use it as justification for what’s going on with modern cards? Goudey was in the business of selling GUM. Kids bought packs of GUM and got the gum. They were not defrauded. Again, it was a shitty thing to do, but the kids got what they paid for. This comparison really needs to die.

The whole point was vintage collectors, in this very thread, mocking the desirability of cards with manufactured scarcity. I was simply pointing out that the practice is not new, not uncommon but, hey, it was OK when it was done 80 years ago because reasons.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Well one difference is the modern manufacturer is creating scarcity to create a speculative secondary market in its product and to create the illusion it's a financially valuable commodity. Neither of which were the goals of the President of the Goudey card company. The old scarcities are rare today because they are scarce, not because someone set out to make them desirable on Ebay.

This sums up my feelings. When vintage cards were printed some hundred years ago, there was not one iota of thought by the manufacturer that one day these cards would be valuable. They were printed for one reason only: to help sell a product associated with it. It would take generations for collectors to discover that some were genuinely rare and worth a premium. It would take generations to determine that some were hard to find and in great demand, and that somebody would be willing to pay a lot of money to purchase them.

Modern cards are different. In the case of this Jordan, a bunch of guys in suits sat in a boardroom and came up with a strategy to manufacture a rarity that current collectors would pay a huge premium for. You can collect whatever you want and pay whatever you want, but a vintage card that became rare and expensive over time is a completely different animal than a modern card that was planned from the outset to be a chase card for collectors.

I don't acknowledge the latter, but apparently there are collectors who do. Chances are in the long run they will lose money on most of these manufactured rarities, but that is their choice and it is their money

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

This sums up my feelings. When vintage cards were printed some hundred years ago, there was not one iota of thought by the manufacturer that one day these cards would be valuable. They were printed for one reason only: to help sell a product associated with it. It would take generations for collectors to discover that some were genuinely rare and worth a premium. It would take generations to determine that some were hard to find and in great demand, and that somebody would be willing to pay a lot of money to purchase them.

Modern cards are different. In the case of this Jordan, a bunch of guys in suits sat in a boardroom and came up with a strategy to manufacture a rarity that current collectors would pay a huge premium for. You can collect whatever you want and pay whatever you want, but a vintage card that became rare and expensive over time is a completely different animal than a modern card that was planned from the outset to be a chase card for collectors.

I don't acknowledge the latter, but apparently there are collectors who do. Chances are in the long run they will lose money on most of these manufactured rarities, but that is their choice and it is their money

well stated Barry!

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

This sums up my feelings. When vintage cards were printed some hundred years ago, there was not one iota of thought by the manufacturer that one day these cards would be valuable. They were printed for one reason only: to help sell a product associated with it. It would take generations for collectors to discover that some were genuinely rare and worth a premium. It would take generations to determine that some were hard to find and in great demand, and that somebody would be willing to pay a lot of money to purchase them.

Modern cards are different. In the case of this Jordan, a bunch of guys in suits sat in a boardroom and came up with a strategy to manufacture a rarity that current collectors would pay a huge premium for. You can collect whatever you want and pay whatever you want, but a vintage card that became rare and expensive over time is a completely different animal than a modern card that was planned from the outset to be a chase card for collectors.

I don't acknowledge the latter, but apparently there are collectors who do. Chances are in the long run they will lose money on most of these manufactured rarities, but that is their choice and it is their money

+2

[ALR-bishop]

5 cents in 1933 is worth what today ? $1 or 95 cents ? $100 then is worth what?
$2667 or so ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It may be a cult set, and that's cool for people who enjoy it, but to me it's just a base card painted green.