Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612

As additional interesting cards get outed will link them here.

[ullmandds]

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I printed and went through the list...will go check my collection later today.

I'm clean, so far, LOL, not that it means much.

[h2oya311]

phew! None from that list are in my collection. I did a quick vlookup in excel. Gotta love technology!

[Peter_Spaeth]

oh my
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2308

[AddieJoss]

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards? Just trying to understand if I have a card on there what that means and what to do if anything.

Cory Weiser

I can't do better than the explanation in the post.

[Copa7]

Thanks for putting this together.

I'd say its the beginning of the end for PSA, but there will always be suckers (says P. T. Barnum).

But like Maestro, smart people will check and verify. But deep down we knew it's a money grabbing business and PSA are using all hands.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

What is that list of? Are those all altered cards? Or submitted cards by someone who has been proven to alter other cards?

Cards submitted by a known trimmer. Highly likely that many/all of these cards are trimmed/altered.

[joshuanip]

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I got lucky, went through my past sales. Seem most of the cards I bought came from auction houses and private collectors. Only card I bought from PWCC last 3 years was a T213-3 coupon Mathewson, which thankfully wasnt on the list.

Still not out of the woods....

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

[swarmee]

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yes, this is only from one guy out of the 10 card alterers exposed by Blowout so far.

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh God no none of us are. This list is the tip of a very big berg.

I’m waiting for a credible company to emerge so I can have them reevaluate my biggest cards. The most important call I relied on from PSA was whether my card was the same one that came out of a pack or box.

I can assess grade largely on my own. Scanning at 1600DPI, you can see incredible detail along the edges. 10x magnification may be sufficient to rush out a numerical grade, but I’m pretty upset these companies didn’t even try to look closer to evaluate authenticity.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.

I know them. At the right time, I will, but they will be impossible to trace IMO. All AH for the most part.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And they don't know about the major vintage ones.

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.
Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Do you want me to point them in the right direction? I don't either.
Edit: except the raw Ebay sellers like battleship and great lakes, if that's who you're talking about. And Vegas Dave for market manipulation.

Nope. Vintage card doctors, of long and honorable duration.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This probably merits a separate thread.

Self explanatory.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14717612

Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.

[nat]

Forgive my ignorance, since I've never sent anything to get graded. But: doesn't PSA have to buy all of these cards back at prices corresponding to the assigned grade? Isn't that their guarantee?

[swarmee]

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If they can be proven altered, yes. That is their grade guarantee with no expiration date, and it's priced into their grading services that cost up to $5,000 a card.
Add: As of a month ago's conference call, they only have about $800,000 in their grade guarantee reserve fund. So once it eclipses that, they'll be taking it out of hide.

We'll see how many people actually ask. PSA may also have claims over against fraudulent submitters, which would be interesting.

[swarmee]

Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Well, if PSA decertifies the numbers like I've asked them to, I'm sure all of those affected will send them back to have them re-evaluated or refunded.

If. If.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If. If.

Focusing on trimming and setting aside (I know it is hard) conspiracy/collusion theories, is it fair to summarize the apparent situation as follows:
(1) PSA has published (or at least alluded to) the practices and procedures it uses to grade every card;
(2) Those practices and procedures include height and width allowances for each type of card -- that is, some amount of deviation bellow an expected height/width is NOT viewed as evidence of trimming;
(3) Blowout/Etc. has established that it is possible to make material improvement in the value of many cards by trimming little enough that the majority (85%) of the cards are still tall/wide enough to avoid being viewed as "trimmed";
(4) Apparently, PSA's existing practices and procedures cannot (or at least do not) detect other evidence of trimming, either because the cutting doesn't leave a trace or PSA's practices and procedures are not comprehensive enough to detect whatever evidence of trimming is available;
(5) The foregoing leads to the conclusion that PSA has to either champion the idea that trimming within its height/width allowances is an acceptable (or at least undetectable) improvement that does not require qualification OR PSA has to explain how it is going to modify its practices and procedures so that trimmed cards can't go undetected.

(Hopefully the "card doctor(s) du jour" will be ostracized/prosecuted and likewise if PSA and/or PWCC (or their employees) were knowingly involved in efforts to conceal/ignore evidence of trimming and sell altered cards without qualification. At the same time,) the next "big picture" event has to happen soon -- PSA has to take a position regarding whether it can detect trimming going forward.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Part of the size issue is that sometimes, apparently, the card doctors use a press to stretch cards before trimming them, so detection depends more on examining the edges than on size per se. Probably some card stocks are more susceptible to this technique than others.

[Ben Yourg]

I called PSA,2 days ago.Asking about increased fees,and length
of return time.
They said they just hired a bunch of new people,to
speed up things??

[swarmee]

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Ben Yourg

They said they just hired a bunch of new people,to speed up things??

They did, but MANY of these cards being exposed were graded 3-5 years ago based on their cert numbers. They can't just slough it off on some newbies.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

You may be correct in what you say PSA should do. But I see very little chance of it happening. Based on what this Board has revealed about the number of altered cards, I would think the cost to buy them all back could put PSA out of business. And if in fact what has been revealed is only the tip of the iceberg, the point is only reinforced.

It seems to me that if ever there was a ripe opportunity for another grading company to come into being, or for SGC to make a major marketing move to recoup market share and reduce/eliminate the price gap between comparably graded PSA and SGC cards, this is it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Part of the size issue is that sometimes, apparently, the card doctors use a press to stretch cards before trimming them, so detection depends more on examining the edges than on size per se. Probably some card stocks are more susceptible to this technique than others.

So, the test needs to be 3-dimensional instead of the 2-dimensional test now used. Flattened-then-trimmed cards meet the 2-dimensional test, but with diminished thickness. They will have to measure the thickness of the card, particularly at the edges. This may require new/additional equipment, but should be technologically feasible and, just as important to PSA's business model, economical.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

[Buythatcard]

Sick list.

It might get to the point that the list of cards not affected will be shorter than the list of affected cards.

[dplath]

I have two of them. Is the recommendation to submit to PSA for grade review? Should I note that the original submission was by a known trimmer?
Thanks,
Dan

[swarmee]

My recommendation to someone else who asked:
https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/p...3&forum=627991

If you bought it through PWCC and it's still in the return window, return it to them ASAP. If they block you from bidding in the future, consider it a plus. If it's outside of the return window (6 months via PayPal, right? maybe longer if you used a credit card), then email PWCC and PSA and see what they'd like you to do. If you didn't buy it through PWCC, work through your original seller and PSA to have it reviewed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

I think he was cut down to just a General.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

It's a new day; PSA's message board post about the scandal has not gone poof. I'm not going away. And although I'm one guy, I scream loudly on message boards. And people are listening.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

Now THIS smells like a class action opportunity, no?

[AddieJoss]

I called and spoke to PSA. They stated three will review any card suspected for being altered and review the card, plus any evidence if you have it as well. This is done free of charge. If deemed altered (I know that term is now ambiguous), they will buy it back. With that said, I would prefer to be at the beginning of this line, and not the end. So you can mail them to them if you would like to see how it goes. If anyone does, please share your experience.

Cory Weiser

[swarmee]

The Airing of Grievances: PSA Edition
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252

[swarmee]

Definitely recommend you try to find proof first before sending back. They will look at the "evidence" of before and after photos.

[Buythatcard]

Suppose you own one of these cards. You won it at an AH or on eBay.
Now, the AH or eBay seller might have bought this card from another AH or seller. Maybe the card was consigned. The AH or eBay seller had no idea that it was altered or doctored in any way. They depended on the expertise of the grading company to confirm its authenticity.

Do you think that the AH or eBay seller is responsible for refunding the buyer? How about the grading company, are they responsible for refunding the buyer?
Or, is the buyer stuck with the card?

[swarmee]

[calvindog]

They still haven’t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don’t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They’re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven’t and won’t.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

They still haven’t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don’t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They’re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven’t and won’t.

Anyone remember WIWAG? They were not exactly forthcoming then.

Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they?

[swarmee]

They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they?

SGC has nothing to provide to the vast majority of PSA's customer base: lower sale values, completely broken pop report and registry, confusing flips, and THEY JUST CLOSED THEIR AUTO AUTHENTICATION ARM. Most people believe that to be because of the T206 auto scandal they and JSA were most heavily involved in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

SGC has nothing to provide to the vast majority of PSA's customer base: lower sale values, completely broken pop report and registry, confusing flips, and THEY JUST CLOSED THEIR AUTO AUTHENTICATION ARM. Most people believe that to be because of the T206 auto scandal they and JSA were most heavily involved in.

Maybe they're better at grading. Starting to look that way to me. And as to sales values, it's at least possible a massive scandal will affect PSA's.