VCBC #7, 1996, PSA & ASA Card Grading Svc's - Smoke Detectors Without Batteries

[Leon]

By popular demand.










.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve Timmons and SCD -- now that brings back memories. The only time in my decades of collecting I had to mention that I was a lawyer was when Steve Timmons at first refused to take some trimmed cards back from me.

[Leon]

In our collections there are hundreds and thousands of alterations that are graded numerically. As long as it's in a slab it's ok though . As I had said in our email, if this was about PWCC doing something the pitchforks would be out. As it is not many folks care if they have altered cards they are unaware of. As long as the snotty nosed kids don't detect Desmond's work, who has been doing it before the kiddo graders were even born, it's all good.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steve Timmons and SCD -- now that brings back memories. The only time in my decades of collecting I had to mention that I was a lawyer was when Steve Timmons at first refused to take some trimmed cards back from me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think a sizeable number of people don't care, but that there is also an element that is just naïve and check their intelligence and common sense and critical faculties at the door when it comes to cards and memorabilia. The sleazebags of the hobby have been preying on these guys for years.

[bnorth]

Great article, I agreed back then and still agree with it today. Can see why it is not too popular on this forum though.

[Bill77]

Fun read, I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.

The only thing missing from the article was everyone's concern that their cards were being changed out for lesser cards and given to priority clients. In retrospect I think the concern over cards being switched probably had more to do with people thinking their cards were better than they actually were, because we all know that our cards are all 9s and 10s.

[rickyb80]

It is quite common for people, in general, to overestimate their own abilities.
I joined PSA a few years ago and didn't make it past the initial 15-card order. I got upset because my cards received poor grades and cursed PSA in every way imaginable. I took the grades they assigned to my cards personally. I knew my cards weren't perfect, but it seemed that my expectations were always a grade or so above the one assigned.

I spent a couple years paying very close attention to everything in the collecting world. I learned a lot about many things and the more I educated myself, the less upset I would get with the card grading companies. Part of that was also due to the fact that I had sharpened my ability to identify and acquire quality cards and I was no longer submitting cards that were unworthy of being graded. I reached the point where I could successfully grade my own cards.

Many people think they are at that point, but I can tell you that most people actually are not. It's hard not to raise an eyebrow when I see someone declare grades that are well above what I know a card should be. Most of the time people are stubborn, don't take my advice, and even get upset with me as if I were somehow purporting to be the authority on grading. The truth is, I do not consider myself to be the authority on grading. I can only speak from my own personal experience.

Full understanding requires a sedulous approach that considers the nuances between each year/set. For example, O-Pee-Chee's don't get graded the same as Topps, especially if they were cut in the 60's or 70's. I've heard this had to do with infrequent blade sharpening, which explains the rougher edges on some versus others. Cards are assessed while considering the era in which they were produced, the methods that were used, etc.

Many people do already know these things but there are also many who do not. That is not to say that there is no reason to doubt the grading companies and I realize there are many collectors who are solid at assessing their cards. However, my experience is that most people do overestimate their own abilities, and it's not my job to convince them to take my advice.

Rule of thumb is to "buy the card, not the grade", and those who stick to that will be successful. I amassed nearly my entire collection almost solely on the profits I made buying cards that were clearly under-graded. Granted, there are times I buy a card that looks under-graded, only to receive it and notice a surface issue that was not visible online. In those cases it is still possible to recoup the money I spent with a little patience, quality photos, and a well-worded description.

I only submit to SGC and Beckett. I see way too many people paying huge premiums for over-hyped cards in PSA holders. I have seen them over-grade more cards than I can count, and many blindly assume that anything in a PSA slab is better than anything else in any other slab. I have seen too much inconsistency from PSA, and their slabs leave a lot to be desired.

I do not feel as though the grading company's are taking advantage of anyone. Whether or not one gets involved with grading is a personal choice. It's a matter of personal preference, and an expensive decision for many people. It's hard to have sympathy for anyone willing to invest money into something without first taking the time to gain a full and complete understanding of the process in which they are investing.

The same people who pay to submit their collection without truly possessing the ability to properly assess with precision and without taint of personal bias, are the same people who later complain that they were "ripped off" or "taken advantage of". I am not saying that was the case in Mr. Purdy's article. In fact, I really like the writing and feel there is a lot of truth to it. It's a nostalgic piece that reminds me of the simpler times that I prefer. Perhaps I've gone on a bit of a tangent. My point is, for every person who actually can grade their own cards, there are 10 more who mistakenly believe they can.

Please. I hope nobody takes anything I have said personally. I'm just being honest and this is not directed at anyone in particular.

Take care. By the way this is my first post on Net54.

Cheers,

Ricky

[glynparson]

Ah the kid grader line again. Every grader I know and I know most of them is north of 40. Most are around the same age as Desmond I believe. Why is it so hard to make points with the truth in this day and age and an article written by someone with an agenda 23 years ago means little today. You defending bvg and constantly ripping psa is a joke. It shows you are either ignorant, blind, or just so loyal because they are your friends. I think you are a nice guy Leon but I think you either spin your grading opinions or just flat out don’t know what your talking about. Go ahead rip
Into me I won’t be checking back in because I don’t feel like fighting with people
Over the internet. Anyone wants to discuss feel
Free to see me at the National or any other show i attend.

[bobbvc]

What's an ASA?

[hcv123]

Reality 1 - 3rd party grading is inconsistent at best (grossly incompetent at worst) - I have seen cards that imnsho were over graded, under graded and grossly mis-graded. For those well versed this is obvious and easy enough to see. (As has been raised above - there are many not so well versed)

Reality 2 - There are altered cards in 3rd party grading holders (we will likely never know which ones as anyone who owns one either is unaware or if aware, unwilling to take the financial hit of being honest). The grading companies ARE PART of the problem - when the very first card that PSA graded - the famed Gretzky-McNall Wagner is publicly known to have been altered (trimmed) and still sits in a PSA 8 holder - violating the very standard PSA claims to follow in grading - the actions (or lack thereof) speak way louder than words. While this is probably the most visible case, it is far from isolated and not a problem exclusive to any 1 grading company.

Reality 3 - The addition of 3rd party grading into the marketplace has vastly increased both the number of people "comfortable" buying cards as well as the prices for those cards. There is a whole market for people who - "buy the holder, not the card". They are certainly entitled to do so, but do so incurring the risks mentioned earlier in this thread.

My opinion - - While a VERY imperfect system for the reasons mentioned above and more, the net effect of 3rd party grading has been a benefit to hobby health as a whole. As in so many other markets - the more educated consumer is always in a position to make a more educated purchase decision. How educated one chooses to get is a personal decision.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon could you also post the companion article on card doctoring?

[Lorewalker]

In 1996 this article was probably cutting edge. I was not quite collecting then however with grading being fairly new, this was probably very controversial and a bold move by the author to print it.

In the short time I have been on this forum, I have read many posts that point out dozens more examples that are far more damaging and convincing than what is being pointed out in the article.

As great as grading is, it is also giving a license to card doctors to steal. It does not help that it appears a majority of collectors do not care or are not experienced enough to know what to look for once the card is blessed. These guys have to be laughing to themselves.

Not sure you can shock the consciences' of collectors enough that anything will ever change. Cards will continue to be worked and collectors will continually look the other way.

[felada]

VCBC was great when it was around. There were a few good articles about Hager. My favorite article was the one that Barry wrote about 19th century type cards. Best was his description of a few that fell into the category of you’ll never own one so why bother level of scarcity.

[buymycards]

It is amazing that the majority of this article still applies to grading in 2019. Nearly 23 years later and most of the points are still valid.

Rick

[rickyb80]

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.

More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?

[oldjudge]

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

[Marckus99]

Slabber collectors,

Live by the sword, then die buying and getting burned with it.

[Leon]

Jay, unfortunately your rose colored glasses are getting in your way of good senses. Maybe it's your thumb in the picture again? Many would disagree with you, me included. I would say lhat SGC gets similar scrutiny and they do advertise (and grade vintage far better than PSA, imo). And I should mention that all grading companies, including SGC, make mistakes as humans are grading the cards. Personally, I think they made a mistake on the Yum Yum I have. But they are still better than PSA, to me.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

[Throttlesteer]

Besides obvious errors (doctoring, counterfeits, etc), how can one even assess consistency anymore? Forget which TPG you're a fan of; The standards have changed over time. Reslabbing just confuses things even more. Yes buy the card not the holder. But no TPG can boast consistency.

[oldjudge]

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.

[Leon]

It is a wonderful hobby.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is a wonderful hobby.

Leon, renewing my request if you have time to post the companion piece on Desmond.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

Jay are you yet convinced it's more than "once in a while"? Do you still think "PSA does a great job"? If not, no worries, much more is coming.

[barrysloate]

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?

If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.

I think there may be small changes. Some collectors will leave the hobby. Others will cut back and not buy as much. But I don't think the impact will be great. Bottom line is there is still too much money to be made, and nobody will give that up.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and we have a hobby earthquake.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think there may be small changes. Some collectors will leave the hobby. Others will cut back and not buy as much. But I don't think the impact will be great. Bottom line is there is still too much money to be made, and nobody will give that up.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and we have a hobby earthquake.

Barry, I hope you’re right. I’m living literally a few miles from the San Andreas fault, closer to it than Brent or PSA for that matter. I didn’t cause the scandal or the San Andreas. I will not accept responsibility for either. To put it simply,

They’re not my fault!!!

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?

From another page in this forum: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...06#post1952906

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

From another page in this forum: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...06#post1952906

To clarify, I don't believe I was referring to this particular forum page when I mentioned those who were "biased for PSA and against Dennis". The exact location of the page I am referring to is still unknown. I just don't want anyone feeling as though I'm calling them out, because that's not how my mind operates. Actually, nevermind, that is precisely how my mind operates if the situation calls for it.

My write-up was directed at those who match the description of someone lacking in maturity, incapable of taking advice, with an exaggerated sense of their abilities, who reflexively responds to information they disagree with, and/or assumes, attacks others, uses disparaging or unhelpful language to distract or shift focus from themselves to another (ad hominem) or blindly defend the indefensible (e.g. - PSA). I'm not saying that every card graded from PSA is illegitimate, but rather I am pointing out the fact that the investigations have been undergone and the results are in. It's not even a contentious topic at this point. PSA makes the worst slabs, is the least consistent, and has the worst track record of any of the big 3 companies. The clearest pattern I have seen between those who feel the way I do and those who do not are:

1) Some advocates for PSA are unaware of the details of the companies history
2) Some advocates for PSA instantly reject negative information because it's a hard pill to swallow, depending on the degree of investment using their services
3) A lot of those advocating for PSA are dealers who use resale value as the sole factor in determining which is the better option
4) Many of those who are new to the hobby are introduced and indoctrinated into the culture of collecting by those preaching PSA as the standard.

Ignorance, unawareness, stubbornness, closed-mindedness, greed, corruption, or just sheer stupidity. I never assume that I know what the source is, but the pattern is definitely present. #1 applies to most beginners/novices but it could be as simple as someone just not taking the time to research it. Whether that's out of laziness on their part or simply that they do not care to know is an internal matter based on each person. #2 applies to a lot of people and I do my best to steer clear from this type because it is futile to believe they can be swayed with facts and the issue is actual caused by something deeper in these individuals. #3 has everything to do with money and that's not the point of collecting, but so long as people continue to overpay for PSA 10's vs. BGS 9.5's this type will continue to roam our hobby in large numbers. #4, like #1, applies to people entering the hobby who haven't taken the time to look deeply into it's history. This type usually hears the acronym "PSA" from another collector (usually a friend or someone they already relate to) so they follow along and join the bandwagon in such fashion. I'm sure there are many more types, but that's just my humble observation. Oh, there's also the question of "whose slabs are best?", but if you place a PSA slab next to a BGS slab it doesn't even seem like a subjective matter. The majority of those I have encountered agree that PSA slabs are thin, cheap, and ugly. Yes, I know, there are those who just love them, but I'd be willing to place a bet that BGS would win in a poll for modern and SGC would likely win in a poll for vintage slabs.

I have noticed that there is a higher percentage of experienced collectors who choose SGC over everything. In my opinion, SGC is a very good company. They are professional, consistent, and seem to hold the deepest appreciation for the history of the hobby. If I were a museum director I'd send everything to SGC. Having spoke with several of the people who work at SGC, at all levels, they seem to be the most ethical of all the big 3 companies. Not to mention that their grading is unbelievably strict. There was 1 time I did crack a 1971 Dusty Baker from an SGC 7 slab in an attempt to bump it to a 7 or an 8 and they returned it as "trimmed", but I do not consider that to be a problem with the company. The grader had a question in his mind as to whether the card was trimmed and he erred on the side of caution. I'd rather a grading company call a card trimmed when it's not than to assign it a numeric grade when it shouldn't because it bolsters the integrity of the process.

Anyways, are there any hobby veterans who are not dealers and would in no way be adversely impacted by the ultimate dissolution of PSA who are aware of everything that has transpired, yet would still be willing to consider PSA as the best of the big 3 companies? If so, how and why? Please help me understand what I am not seeing because I have worked pretty hard not to believe what I now feel to be the truth.

Cheers,
Ricky

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

To clarify, I don't believe I was referring to this particular forum page when I mentioned those who were "biased for PSA and against Dennis". The exact location of the page I am referring to is still unknown. I just don't want anyone feeling as though I'm calling them out, because that's not how my mind operates. Actually, nevermind, that is precisely how my mind operates if the situation calls for it.

My write-up was directed at those who match the description of someone lacking in maturity, incapable of taking advice, with an exaggerated sense of their abilities, who reflexively responds to information they disagree with, and/or assumes, attacks others, uses disparaging or unhelpful language to distract or shift focus from themselves to another (ad hominem) or blindly defend the indefensible (e.g. - PSA). I'm not saying that every card graded from PSA is illegitimate, but rather I am pointing out the fact that the investigations have been undergone and the results are in. It's not even a contentious topic at this point. PSA makes the worst slabs, is the least consistent, and has the worst track record of any of the big 3 companies. The clearest pattern I have seen between those who feel the way I do and those who do not are:

1) Some advocates for PSA are unaware of the details of the companies history
2) Some advocates for PSA instantly reject negative information because it's a hard pill to swallow, depending on the degree of investment using their services
3) A lot of those advocating for PSA are dealers who use resale value as the sole factor in determining which is the better option
4) Many of those who are new to the hobby are introduced and indoctrinated into the culture of collecting by those preaching PSA as the standard.

Ignorance, unawareness, stubbornness, closed-mindedness, greed, corruption, or just sheer stupidity. I never assume that I know what the source is, but the pattern is definitely present. #1 applies to most beginners/novices but it could be as simple as someone just not taking the time to research it. Whether that's out of laziness on their part or simply that they do not care to know is an internal matter based on each person. #2 applies to a lot of people and I do my best to steer clear from this type because it is futile to believe they can be swayed with facts and the issue is actual caused by something deeper in these individuals. #3 has everything to do with money and that's not the point of collecting, but so long as people continue to overpay for PSA 10's vs. BGS 9.5's this type will continue to roam our hobby in large numbers. #4, like #1, applies to people entering the hobby who haven't taken the time to look deeply into it's history. This type usually hears the acronym "PSA" from another collector (usually a friend or someone they already relate to) so they follow along and join the bandwagon in such fashion. I'm sure there are many more types, but that's just my humble observation. Oh, there's also the question of "whose slabs are best?", but if you place a PSA slab next to a BGS slab it doesn't even seem like a subjective matter. The majority of those I have encountered agree that PSA slabs are thin, cheap, and ugly. Yes, I know, there are those who just love them, but I'd be willing to place a bet that BGS would win in a poll for modern and SGC would likely win in a poll for vintage slabs.

I have noticed that there is a higher percentage of experienced collectors who choose SGC over everything. In my opinion, SGC is a very good company. They are professional, consistent, and seem to hold the deepest appreciation for the history of the hobby. If I were a museum director I'd send everything to SGC. Having spoke with several of the people who work at SGC, at all levels, they seem to be the most ethical of all the big 3 companies. Not to mention that their grading is unbelievably strict. There was 1 time I did crack a 1971 Dusty Baker from an SGC 7 slab in an attempt to bump it to a 7 or an 8 and they returned it as "trimmed", but I do not consider that to be a problem with the company. The grader had a question in his mind as to whether the card was trimmed and he erred on the side of caution. I'd rather a grading company call a card trimmed when it's not than to assign it a numeric grade when it shouldn't because it bolsters the integrity of the process.

Anyways, are there any hobby veterans who are not dealers and would in no way be adversely impacted by the ultimate dissolution of PSA who are aware of everything that has transpired, yet would still be willing to consider PSA as the best of the big 3 companies? If so, how and why? Please help me understand what I am not seeing because I have worked pretty hard not to believe what I now feel to be the truth.

Cheers,
Ricky

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

The collecting masses still seem to be completely unaware of the multi-million dollar scam. One thought was to rent a booth at the National Collectors Convention (close to the proximity of PSA). A continuous loop video on a large screen could document the thousands of indisputable "before and after" examples of blatant alteration. Trimmed, recolored, bleached and butchered cards that now reside in numbered PSA holders.

The National is by far the best-attended show in the country, and might be the best place to reach/impact a large number of people who could potentially (and finally) see the light. Sure, the people who are deeply invested in PSA would shun the whole thing, but a number of others presumably "on the fence" could be swayed to spend their money elsewhere.

The media seems disinterested at this point in time. I'm sure that if the FBI was to be successful in making arrests and shutting these people down, then you'd see greater media coverage of the fraud/scandal. But if that never happens, it will continue to be business as usual with favored submitters, card doctors, and dealers of altered/preserved cards continuing to reign supreme (as they bilk the common collector).

The current system is all about money. PSA rakes it in on submissions (and countless re-submissions). Card Doctors routinely realize thousands of dollars for a few minutes of trim work. Shady dealers benefit by selling tainted cards for hundreds of times their actual worth. And auction houses rake in cash in the form of Buyers and Sellers commissions. It's a perfect system for all of them, while the common Joe gets screwed and pays exponentially more money for a card that should grade "A".

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

The way this is stopped is to stop submitting, stop buying, and stop consigning.

[Exhibitman]

Of course it is about money, Mark. Everything in America is about money, from cards to cancer treatment.

Purdy called out the silliness and potential for corruption in TPGs decades ago. I wrote articles for him exposing the fraud behind the SMR, which featured made-up prices for cards that did not exist but which listed them as actual sales anyway. No one cared then and no one cares now because of the money. The registry collectors who consume PSA slabs are too busy spending for slabs as a way of comparing dicks with other rich guys, so they don't want to know from trimming, bleaching and fraud. The PSA dealers know that it costs a fraction of the boost in value to have PSA slab a valuable card, so they hold their noses and carry on. I know that is true because as much as I loathe TPGs, I play that game too when it comes to selling. I sent in an order to PSA last fall which included a Bill Russell RC (the Celtics center, not the Dodgers SS). It is what we used to call a "beater" and I bought it priced accordingly. PSA released the grade yesterday and graded it fair. They 'upcharged' me $60 for the higher than expected grade and I paid it readily because that $60 made a $500 raw card into a $1100 card for the PSA audience. It is a license to print money for everyone involved and as long as there is a market for it, resistance is futile. TPGs are the Borg and they will assimilate you...

[buymycards]

As a side note, PSA has announced that their backlog is over one million cards.

I am not joking.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

Well, based on those last few responses, I suppose there’s nothing we can do to solve it. Maybe law enforcement will do something. Clearly the bulk of the collecting community and resulting profiteers desire no changes whatsoever.

As so many correctly predicted, Brent and his tenets will prevail.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, based on those last few responses, I suppose there’s nothing we can do to solve it. Maybe law enforcement will do something. Clearly the bulk of the collecting community and resulting profiteers desire no changes whatsoever.

As so many correctly predicted, Brent and his tenets will prevail.

This what we are up against.....sadly everything is priced in.

Sometimes you just have to go your own way or accept it......it’s to stressful to allow it to bother me anymore..l

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This what we are up against.....sadly everything is priced in.

Sometimes you just have to go your own way or accept it......it’s to stressful to allow it to bother me anymore..l

Yeah, you're right. At least I have memorabilia to fall back on. Stuff that they can't or won't ever slab, thank God.

I'm kind of done with cards after all this. The money definitely outweighs the ethics in this hobby.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Of course it is about money, Mark. Everything in America is about money, from cards to cancer treatment.

Purdy called out the silliness and potential for corruption in TPGs decades ago. I wrote articles for him exposing the fraud behind the SMR, which featured made-up prices for cards that did not exist but which listed them as actual sales anyway. No one cared then and no one cares now because of the money. The registry collectors who consume PSA slabs are too busy spending for slabs as a way of comparing dicks with other rich guys, so they don't want to know from trimming, bleaching and fraud. The PSA dealers know that it costs a fraction of the boost in value to have PSA slab a valuable card, so they hold their noses and carry on. I know that is true because as much as I loathe TPGs, I play that game too when it comes to selling. I sent in an order to PSA last fall which included a Bill Russell RC (the Celtics center, not the Dodgers SS). It is what we used to call a "beater" and I bought it priced accordingly. PSA released the grade yesterday and graded it fair. They 'upcharged' me $60 for the higher than expected grade and I paid it readily because that $60 made a $500 raw card into a $1100 card for the PSA audience. It is a license to print money for everyone involved and as long as there is a market for it, resistance is futile. TPGs are the Borg and they will assimilate you...

I never met Dennis Purdy personally but I did represent him and the magazine in defense of a libel suit in federal court in New Jersey. He was a straight-shooter and wasn’t afraid to express his strong opinions.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

I agree with you. How can we solve this?

A lot of folks have been putting in quite a bit of work online. Now when I say online, I mean that folks have been researching old sales, comparing scans, sending out emails, posting on forums, etc. However, outside of the digital world, nothing really has been done. This would involve approaching card trimmers at shows, setting up tables, handing out flyers, arranging meetings, etc. This is something that would require a great deal of work and none of the folks who scream at their computer screens are willing to do this. So with that being said, the only option that remains is for everyone to just wait and see what the FBI is going to do.

[ejharrington]

The author makes note about restoration as opposed to doctoring and references another part of the magazine. Leon - do you know what he was referring to?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The collecting masses still seem to be completely unaware of the multi-million dollar scam. One thought was to rent a booth at the National Collectors Convention (close to the proximity of PSA). A continuous loop video on a large screen could document the thousands of indisputable "before and after" examples of blatant alteration. Trimmed, recolored, bleached and butchered cards that now reside in numbered PSA holders.

The National is by far the best-attended show in the country, and might be the best place to reach/impact a large number of people who could potentially (and finally) see the light. Sure, the people who are deeply invested in PSA would shun the whole thing, but a number of others presumably "on the fence" could be swayed to spend their money elsewhere.

The media seems disinterested at this point in time. I'm sure that if the FBI was to be successful in making arrests and shutting these people down, then you'd see greater media coverage of the fraud/scandal. But if that never happens, it will continue to be business as usual with favored submitters, card doctors, and dealers of altered/preserved cards continuing to reign supreme (as they bilk the common collector).

The current system is all about money. PSA rakes it in on submissions (and countless re-submissions). Card Doctors routinely realize thousands of dollars for a few minutes of trim work. Shady dealers benefit by selling tainted cards for hundreds of times their actual worth. And auction houses rake in cash in the form of Buyers and Sellers commissions. It's a perfect system for all of them, while the common Joe gets screwed and pays exponentially more money for a card that should grade "A".

1) It mentioned in the article that the FTC filed suit against PCGS for "not providing objective or consistent grading" - is that an angle anyone has explored with the current situation?
2) I think the table at the national idea is a great one - Perhaps interested parties could contribute $$ to pay for the table. Perhaps something we could even do in partnership with blowout? Would need volunteers to watch the table and possibly be available to speak to people live (If I go, which as of now I'm planning on, I would volunteer to spend a couple of hours there). we would need to get permission from the promoters as setting up this table would obviously run counter to the interests of at least 2 other table holders (PSA and PWCC). Anyone want to add their thoughts or volunteer to work on this?

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by hcv123

1) It mentioned in the article that the FTC filed suit against PCGS for "not providing objective or consistent grading" - is that an angle anyone has explored with the current situation?
2) I think the table at the national idea is a great one - Perhaps interested parties could contribute $$ to pay for the table. Perhaps something we could even do in partnership with blowout? Would need volunteers to watch the table and possibly be available to speak to people live (If I go, which as of now I'm planning on, I would volunteer to spend a couple of hours there). we would need to get permission from the promoters as setting up this table would obviously run counter to the interests of at least 2 other table holders (PSA and PWCC). Anyone want to add their thoughts or volunteer to work on this?

Hi Howard, first of all, the promoters of the National don't care. As long as they sell out their tables, they don't care that many of the tables are sold to crooks and scammers. They will never let this happen.

Second, PSA is receiving an average of 68,000 submissions per week. The majority of these submitters either don't know about the problems with PSA or they don't care, as long as they believe they will get higher prices with a PSA slab. Talking to a few hundred people at the National will be like throwing a rock in the ocean. You will have a couple of people at a time at your table, while across the aisle, PSA will have 100's of people lined up waiting to submit their cards.

Rick

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi Howard, first of all, the promoters of the National don't care. As long as they sell out their tables, they don't care that many of the tables are sold to crooks and scammers. They will never let this happen.

Second, PSA is receiving an average of 68,000 submissions per week. The majority of these submitters either don't know about the problems with PSA or they don't care, as long as they believe they will get higher prices with a PSA slab. Talking to a few hundred people at the National will be like throwing a rock in the ocean. You will have a couple of people at a time at your table, while across the aisle, PSA will have 100's of people lined up waiting to submit their cards.

Rick

I do not control outcomes - that doesn't leave me less responsible for taking actions aligned with my integrity.

Will the promoters let it happen - we won't know for sure till a phone call is made or email sent.

Will it make a difference? The more people that are aware of what is going on, I believe the better for the hobby overall - I think making a few hundred people aware (if that's all that would happen) would be a great success!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.

good, because they are all probably fake!

Thanks for posting the article Leon!!!!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I do not control outcomes - that doesn't leave me less responsible for taking actions aligned with my integrity.

Will the promoters let it happen - we won't know for sure till a phone call is made or email sent.

Will it make a difference? The more people that are aware of what is going on, I believe the better for the hobby overall - I think making a few hundred people aware (if that's all that would happen) would be a great success!

I haven't been able to get a booth. Been trying for a couple years now. It's not even that they'll keep someone out because of their motives (exposing fraud) they just don't have room.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by fuddjcal

good, because they are all probably fake!:d:d:d

thanks for posting the article leon!!!!

hahahahahahahahaha

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

The author makes note about restoration as opposed to doctoring and references another part of the magazine. Leon - do you know what he was referring to?

i'm not Leon...
Howevar, i do believe this is what they were talkin' about:

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

i'm not Leon...
Howevar, i do believe this is what they were talkin' about:

Thank you sir. It seems like the more things change the more they stay the same.