Anyone else feel the same way?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Let me slip in a positive word for my LCS, Burbank Sportscards. They don't deserve to be lumped in with the PWCCs and Probsteins of the world: Rob and crew are as nice and honest as you could hope for. Their pricing can be high but they cater to people who want the card quickly and are willing to pay for the infrastructure to deliver it.

I agree with Darren on this. I can't speak for him but, for me, it's not a matter of their honesty, it's the fact that they use (or at least used to) stock photos for many of their cards. Stock photos SUCK!

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Because for many collectors there is a rush having something that the best available, 1 of 1 or 1 or 2. Makes it seem extra amazing. Not limited to cards at all. Talk to a comic book collector or someone who collects beany babies, humells, or anything else.

People like to make comparisons across other hobbies but there isn't a comparison. Baseball card collecting is an area where low grade is not considered worthless or undesirable. How many times has the board echoed the mantra "buy the card not the holder"?

[Yankees1964]

Originally Posted by bbsports

Listen guys, I understand how you all feel and you have every right to be down about this hobby. This is still a great hobby and just because there are a few real bad apples that have committed fraud, should we punish all the honest dealers in this hobby? Absolutely not! I have doing cards for 55 years, 40 of them as a dealer, and I am always careful of what I purchase whether it is privately or on line because I resell to the general public. If I get hurt, the customer gets hurt. People still go to baseball games, even though some players try to get an "edge" by taking drugs. Well, you don't ban collecting cards and going to card shows because some of these cheaters that are hurting the hobby. Hopefully the ones that have been cheating for years, most will get caught & this pass by. However it will take time. Don't give up on this great hobby yet.

Bill, this will make me support guys like you Don and others even more. I can't give up on this hobby, I am too old and need something to keep my mind off of reality . I am just going to concentrate all my buying from guys I know at Philly and White Plains and auction houses I trust (LOTG, Sterling).

[Donscards]

Originally Posted by bbsports

Listen guys, I understand how you all feel and you have every right to be down about this hobby. This is still a great hobby and just because there are a few real bad apples that have committed fraud, should we punish all the honest dealers in this hobby? Absolutely not! I have doing cards for 55 years, 40 of them as a dealer, and I am always careful of what I purchase whether it is privately or on line because I resell to the general public. If I get hurt, the customer gets hurt. People still go to baseball games, even though some players try to get an "edge" by taking drugs. Well, you don't ban collecting cards and going to card shows because some of these cheaters that are hurting the hobby. Hopefully the ones that have been cheating for years, most will get caught & this pass by. However it will take time. Don't give up on this great hobby yet.

Well said---I agree with you on the hobby and business. With all the graded cards in this hobby, it is a very small percentage of altered cards out there. Yes, it is bad what these guys have done and there are a lot more people doing this than we have mentioned. But I also have been selling cards for a long time and look forward to a Great National. I still am buying cards strong and if anybody wants to sell me cards, just let me know.

[sportscardpete]

Every hobby has their issues. Just have to be careful. Saying you are done collecting because of this fraud is your loss. Plenty of cards out there that are still good.

I think the board did a great job of reporting and analyzing the issues presented. But, in the grand scheme of things it is a subset of cards in the vintage universe. I feel like some people have automatically dismissed the entire hobby and in my opinion that is just being ridiculous.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by packs

People like to make comparisons across other hobbies but there isn't a comparison. Baseball card collecting is an area where low grade is not considered worthless or undesirable. How many times has the board echoed the mantra "buy the card not the holder"?

Who said low grade was worthless or undesirable? Just pointing out why for some collectors there is a tremendous allure of high end scarcities. Not all but some. Same reason people pay a shit ton of money for limited edition cars and watches.

[ejharrington]

It has decreased, but not eliminated, my enthusiasm for vintage cards. I honestly don't know if my enthusiasm will ever fully come back. It's not only this scandal, but the fake signed card scandal (which had no impact on me directly) and other frauds have left me questioning everything.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Who said low grade was worthless or undesirable? Just pointing out why for some collectors there is a tremendous allure of high end scarcities. Not all but some. Same reason people pay a shit ton of money for limited edition cars and watches.

To each their own as always, but it seems as though the difference between an authentic altered card and these high end scarcities gets smaller and smaller every day. If that makes collecting more exciting, more power to you. You could probably get the same card at a fraction of the price if you bought it trimmed, especially if it's trimmed anyway.

[KingFisk]

As stated/posted in other threads (post war and elsewhere here). I have solely been speculating on Alec Bohm prospect cards. Possibly foolish but a lot of fun getting behind a player I am genuinely excited about.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[barrysloate]

For those who are disgusted by what has happened with third party grading, but still want to collect, why not consider some other kinds of baseball collectibles? There are many interesting areas other than cards, and it's just a matter of finding something that you find appealing.

Not for everyone, but something to think about.

[Johnny630]

In the spirit of Warren Buffett....When people get nervous I look for buying opportunities.....
or Ex Chicago Mayor, Never let a crisis go to waste....when blood is in the water and the prices drop that will be the time to pounce... Pricing hasn't been effected yet.....

[Baseball Bob]

To me, it all goes into the old adage “if it seems to be too good to be true, it is”. PWCC getting 30-40% more than any other auction house always seemed very suspicious to me, so I steered clear of them for the most part. If I later find that I was shilled and lost some money then shame on me.

I also always despised PSA because their grading was IMO terribly inconsistent. I always stuck with SGC, whose grading was way more predictable and consistent. Not perfect, mind you, but seemed more honest to me.

I still love collecting but I guard against fraud at every turn. People being people, and with the current mindset in this country being grab for whatever you can get no matter what the collateral damage to other people, other countries, the environment, etc, I am extraordinarily careful.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

For those who are disgusted by what has happened with third party grading, but still want to collect, why not consider some other kinds of baseball collectibles? There are many interesting areas other than cards, and it's just a matter of finding something that you find appealing.

Not for everyone, but something to think about.

I agree with this. In fact, I did just this a few months ago, prior to this scandal. My reasons had nothing to do with a bad sentiment towards the hobby, I had just gotten bored with what I was collecting. For me, I dove into signed checks (pretty hard to fake although it can be done), press photos and high grade HOF miscut cards. Since my passion is cards, I've had the most fun with the miscut cards. I buy what most people don't want and can usually pick them up very cheap. Here's a few that I've picked up so far. I don't think I paid more than $30 for any of these. The more miscut the better - I prefer to see part of another card - but it does have to be in otherwise very high grade condition. (If you have some for sale, hit me up )

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

For those who are disgusted by what has happened with third party grading, but still want to collect, why not consider some other kinds of baseball collectibles? There are many interesting areas other than cards, and it's just a matter of finding something that you find appealing.

Not for everyone, but something to think about.

Exactly, and I bet cards will seem much more ordinary (including high grade) after discovering other aspects of baseball collecting. At least it did for me.

Probably not trimmed...

[lowpopper]

Take the knowledge you gathered from the scandal
and use it to your benefit. Don’t get flustered or
discouraged. Do what you love and become sharper
through knowledge gained.

[Danny Smith]

I sold out of pretty much everything a few months ago. I still collect e105s and kept a few sentimental items. I really enjoyed the hunt but going forward i'm having fun collecting raw cards of players that I like to watch. I doubt I will ever get back into vintage like i was before.

[sb1]

Buying as much or more for the sets I collect, as well as lots of high grade slabbed/raw material from reputable sources.

I will be at the National and buying pre-war & post-war cards, singles, sets, collections. Anyone wanting to cash in come to table #713, there will be buyers for many genre's at the table, all well capitalized.

Or if you prefer to auction your collection, that can be arranged as well.

Scott

[Snapolit1]

"PWCC getting 30-40% more than any other auction house" ?

I must have missed that. Sure, there are many instance on PWCC where stuff seems run up very oddly, but on high end stuff I never saw them getting consistently any higher prices than REA or Heritage or even Goldin. In many many cases I've watched over the years PWCC is lower. The slick catalogs and write ups clearly drive lots of people to these top tier AHs who ordinarily might not be speculating in cards. One spot for Goldin on CNBC Power Lunch probably equates to 100 new rich guy bidders on Wall Street. If one has a real high end vintage card, you'd be nuts to sell that with PWCC.

PWCC might seem higher of course as they don't tack on a 22-25% vig.

Originally Posted by Baseball Bob

To me, it all goes into the old adage “if it seems to be too good to be true, it is”. PWCC getting 30-40% more than any other auction house always seemed very suspicious to me, so I steered clear of them for the most part. If I later find that I was shilled and lost some money then shame on me.

I also always despised PSA because their grading was IMO terribly inconsistent. I always stuck with SGC, whose grading was way more predictable and consistent. Not perfect, mind you, but seemed more honest to me.

I still love collecting but I guard against fraud at every turn. People being people, and with the current mindset in this country being grab for whatever you can get no matter what the collateral damage to other people, other countries, the environment, etc, I am extraordinarily careful.

[1954 topps]

I'm going to stick out from the normal crowd here when I say I collect exclusively high grade, however, I collect only one set. My collecting goals will not change.

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered. However, I've also been highly skeptical of a few PWCC cards in the past. Example, I passed on a very nice Mays 8.5 that I felt could have been trimmed. As it turns out, this card WAS listed as being outed by BO. When I saw it was outed I wasn't shocked but it was horribly upsetting that I considered bidding.

PSA missed the boat and that's not acceptable. This affects all auction houses and the entire hobby, not just PWCC! Cards turn over several times and I'm not confident Memory Lane, Mile High, REA, Lelands, or others will catch these doctored cards.

[NYYFan63]

I started collecting pre-war over a year ago. I purchased about 50 T206's then stopped as I went back to collecting current (Trout, Acuna and a few others), and have now come back to buying T206's again. I am focusing on HOFr's for now mostly in the GD-EX range.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered.

And exactly what makes you confident?

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Yankees1964

I have also stopped. I have not lost interest but instead shifted to working on a 91 Desert Shield set. I never bought from PWCC. I am more of an in person buyer at shows and on Net54 but many times I end up with a card that at one time went through PWCC. I'm actually waiting, maybe dreaming, for when there is a comprehensive list of altered cards that will be out there.

You do know they counterfeited those too don't you? If the pineapple is outside the border the card is quite possibly one of the fakes. Good luck with that set though. I've seen one that was minus the Chipper Jones Rookie, but felt the seller wanted full blown retail so I couldn't make a deal with him.

[1954 topps]

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

All of which puts you miles ahead of PSA!

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

Take the knowledge you gathered from the scandal
and use it to your benefit. Don’t get flustered or
discouraged. Do what you love and become sharper
through knowledge gained.

I agree. Anybody who has found this board has some basic knowledge to work with and the ability to learn more. Part of my enjoyment in collecting is expanding my knowledge and my skills in assessing cards. And there are limitless ways to collect - if these scandals made such an impact that it ruins things, there are opportunities to shift and find other niches.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Bicem

And exactly what makes you confident?

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

But you can't be sure from just looking at online pics, and most AH's aren't going to accept a return if you deem a card altered using the above when PSA says different without compelling evidence like before and after pics. So then what do you do or what have you done?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

All of us except me.

But on a serious note, yes, the infestation has spread far and wide.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

For those who are disgusted by what has happened with third party grading, but still want to collect, why not consider some other kinds of baseball collectibles? There are many interesting areas other than cards, and it's just a matter of finding something that you find appealing.

Not for everyone, but something to think about.

I think probably most of the people on this board have the collecting gene so your thoughts on collecting other things is probably what some people need especially after this fiasco. I’m sure we’re just scratching the surface as well.

Personally I’m very disgusted, a bit down and disappointed with what’s going on with cards with both the sellers and TPA. When I first started collecting I didn’t take much consideration about the condition of cards. Shoot when I was young I didn’t really even think about “oh no; this card is off center”. Since I’ve been collecting a while now I decided to upgrade some of my cards and purchased some in slabs. It hurts to know I may have some of those cards that are altered that I paid a premium. I haven’t given up completely like some, but I stopped purchasing graded cards completely at this point.

[Goudey77]

I think a lot of the lull people are experiencing is typical during the summer months. We get busy with other projects, Vacations, events, etc.
It's when the cold weather hits and cabin fever kicks in.

I bet it'll be business as usual for most by the winter season?
Especially if there are opportunities for good deals!

[seattlerainiers]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Exactly, and I bet cards will seem much more ordinary (including high grade) after discovering other aspects of baseball collecting. At least it did for me.

Probably not trimmed...

What a silly-looking card Jeff. Who would want to own one of those?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by conor912

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

I think, with a lot of us, we don't believe that not buying from PWCC is going to shield us. It's more about not rewarding a company that has done so much harm to the hobby we purport to love.

[tedzan]

Before I make my comments on this subject, here is where I'm coming from. Displayed here are my first two BB cards (I am not sure
which one of these was my very 1st). The 1947 picture from my Yankee Stadium Team Photo pack or the 1947 BOND BREAD BB card.
Why Johnny Lindell ? Well, as an 8-year old, I was really impressed with Johnny's performance in the 1947 World Series (Yankees vs
Dodgers). I listened to the entire 7-game Series on my Radio.
Lindell's 1947 World Series stats (6 games)....AB = 18, BAvg = .500, SLG = .778, Hits = 9, RBI = 7, BB = 5, K = 2.
Plus 4 diving catches in LF which ultimately saved each of the games those particular days.


OK, this is the 73rd year (excluding 4 years in the Air Force and first 7 years of marriage) since I started collecting anything related to
BB. And, I will continue collecting BB cards (and Sports related memorabilia) until it's time to pass my stuff onto my Grandson.

Upon reading the posts in this thread, all I can say is that I feel sorry for many of you who are allowing some "bad guys" in this hobby
destroy your passion for collecting Sportscards. I can understand that some of you have invested a lot into graded cards and you have
become very "pi$$ed". Eventually, this "storm" will have passed, and here's hoping you return to this great hobby.

I am probably the oldest "dude" on this forum; however, spending many hours going thru my BB card collection.....researching certain
aspects of these cards (or sets)…..wheeling-and-dealing with some of you guys....and first and foremost of all, establishing friendships
which last a lifetime...have kept me young at heart.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[wondo]

I’m buying more than I ever have. Having a ball!

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Since my passion is cards, I've had the most fun with the miscut cards. I buy what most people don't want and can usually pick them up very cheap. Here's a few that I've picked up so far. I don't think I paid more than $30 for any of these. The more miscut the better - I prefer to see part of another card - but it does have to be in otherwise very high grade condition. (If you have some for sale, hit me up )

I've been interested in miscuts for years. Some of my favorites:

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Before I make my comments on this subject, here is where I'm coming from. Displayed here are my first two BB cards (I am not sure
which one of these was my very 1st). The 1947 picture from my Yankee Stadium Team Photo pack or the 1947 BOND BREAD BB card.
Why Johnny Lindell ? Well, as an 8-year old, I was really impressed with Johnny's performance in the 1947 World Series (Yankees vs
Dodgers). I listened to the entire 7-game Series on my Radio.
Lindell's 1947 World Series stats (6 games)....AB = 18, BAvg = .500, SLG = .778, Hits = 9, RBI = 7, BB = 5, K = 2.
Plus 4 diving catches in LF which ultimately saved each of the games those particular days.


OK, this is the 73rd year (excluding 4 years in the Air Force and first 7 years of marriage) since I started collecting anything related to
BB. And, I will continue collecting BB cards (and Sports related memorabilia) until it's time to pass my stuff onto my Grandson.

Upon reading the posts in this thread, all I can say is that I feel sorry for many of you who are allowing some "bad guys" in this hobby
destroy your passion for collecting Sportscards. I can understand that some of you have invested a lot into graded cards and you have
become very "pi$$ed". Eventually, this "storm" will have passed, and here's hoping you return to this great hobby.

I am probably the oldest "dude" on this forum; however, spending many hours going thru my BB card collection.....researching certain
aspects of these cards (or sets)…..wheeling-and-dealing with some of you guys....and first and foremost of all, establishing friendships
which last a lifetime...have kept me young at heart.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Well said Ted!

[Yoda]

PWCC must be a full blown money-making machine. I am sure their cash flow covers overheads easily and leaves a tidy profit for the owners. But poor Bret. Think of the agro.

[tedzan]

Thank you, Jay. I appreciate the compliment.

As I recall, you are a Yankees fan. But, too young to have seen the 1947 World Series. In my opinion this World Series was
one of the most exciting ever played. Plus, it was Jackie Robinson's first Series. I have seen most of the World Series since
1949 (when my folks purchased our first TV).
Check-it-out, if you haven't seen it.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I always figured there were mistakes made on graded cards, but I now believe the percentage is MUCH higher than the 1 or 2% I used to assume.

And to make it worse, I'm now questioning the cards I already own that are in PSA holders. This card is a PSA 4. I admit, I bought the 4 not the card. I was at the National, saw it and bought it before I really looked at it. Now I just don't know. It looks funny to me. And now I know I can't trust these guys to catch the most basic card alterations that I foolishly assumed they would pretty much never miss. That's a game changer for me.

So, yes, it has made me even more jaded.

I'm wondering if other people have graded cards that they now look at and wonder.....

Attachment 359651

This Mike Schmidt rookie card has been dipped in bleach and trimmed or I'm not Brent Mastro

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I'm curious if anyone who does feel the same way, that recent revelations have ruined things, could go deeper as to what has changed. I ask, in part, because while the revelations are dramatic, trimming, recoloring, etc. are not at all new; these types of scammers and bad actors have had a presence in the hobby for a long, long time.
The revelations are shocking and I am still frustrated that we have to deal with card doctors and this type of bad behavior. But perhaps what is even more frustrating is how PWCC has not seemed to lose much business despite the revelations. It's like a restaurant that people discover is serving rat meat instead of hamburgers, all while adding RoundUp and spitting on them before giving them to people. And yet customers still line up...
Anyway, I'm not going to let a few bad actors ruin my fun in the hobby. But my collecting goals are modest (to say the least) and my philosophy with buying any card is that I will make the purchase if I am ok with it losing all it's value and I can still enjoy it.

What's new for me is the PWCC business plan from the start. To shill bid, bleach and trim every card for the taking, re holster a sell for a huge profit.

I'm just not interested in a hobby that allows that bullshit for 15 years, sorry.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Opposite for me. Since the scandal I've ditched graded, gone raw, and have a lot more fun (and money). Bought a bunch of unikeep binders and pages.

I never got into graded cards. Bought raw, still by raw. I did kind of follow authenticated autographs. But for 10 years I have heard that fraud is rampant in this sector. I followed the hall of shame blog. Best advice has always been buy from your trusted local dealer. So the news to me hasn't been earth shattering.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dabigyankeeman]

Over the years I have bought a lot of graded cards mainly to verify that they are authentic and not counterfeits, and then popped them out of their slabs and put them raw into sheets in albums. The last couple of years I have left them in their slabs again mainly for authenticity in case I want to sell them down the road. I dont get into the super-expensive stuff, and for me I am not going to let this scandal take away the fantastic enjoyment I get out of collecting. I think that except for a small bunch of really intense collectors, this whole thing in time will blow over anyway.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Well said Ted!

Ted hits it on the head.

Also, it's good to note that while the doctors and scam artists are out there, the modern age of the hobby includes tools to catch and identify them (not to mention the dedicated people out there willing to spend the time to do so).

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

I'm going to stick out from the normal crowd here when I say I collect exclusively high grade, however, I collect only one set. My collecting goals will not change.

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered. However, I've also been highly skeptical of a few PWCC cards in the past. Example, I passed on a very nice Mays 8.5 that I felt could have been trimmed. As it turns out, this card WAS listed as being outed by BO. When I saw it was outed I wasn't shocked but it was horribly upsetting that I considered bidding.

PSA missed the boat and that's not acceptable. This affects all auction houses and the entire hobby, not just PWCC! Cards turn over several times and I'm not confident Memory Lane, Mile High, REA, Lelands, or others will catch these doctored cards.

If you don't think that Banks Rookie is doctored, I have a bridge to sell you LOLOLOL.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Ted hits it on the head.

Also, it's good to note that while the doctors and scam artists are out there, the modern age of the hobby includes tools to catch and identify them (not to mention the dedicated people out there willing to spend the time to do so).

seriously? you mean like PSA?

[perezfan]

If PWCC comes away from all of this unscathed, and if there aren't some strong ramifications/changes in store for PSA (i.e. the way they grade + conduct business), then Brent's Tenets will inevitably become the Hobby norm.

At that point (if nothing ultimately happens, and Brent's views on "conservation" are deemed valid), then I am out completely. I am still hanging on by a thread, and finding some nice raw cards via Greg Morris and others. But my continued participation in the hobby pretty much rests on what specific punishment is in store for the Doctors, Corrupt Dealers and TPGs (whether negligent, incompetent or complicit).

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

seriously? you mean like PSA?

I was referring more to Worthpoint, etc. that helps with the before and after photos. The better tools are the online records of previous sales and accompanying photos, not to mention bidding history and other ways to ferret out shilling (if we expand to other scandals).
But yes, PSA and TPGs are also tools that can be used. I don't believe, nor ever have believed, that any TPG is infallible, but I also don't believe they are co-conspirators with the other parties involved in the doctoring scandals (jury remains out on Beckett with that former employee getting black labels). They offer an opinion that should be taken with a grain of salt, and I'm not going to cast out every slabbed card because a number of them got through the grading process after being altered.

[LEHR]

After 30+ years of card collecting and owning thousands of PSA cards over the years, I can now hold all my graded cards in two hands.
Thankfully I became disenchanted with card collecting long before the latest fiasco.
I'm still an avid collector, but I've definitely moved on from cards, and truthfully, I don't miss it.